Every year our church does an exchange with another local church. Basically, we get together twice a year, once at their church and once at ours, and have a mass worship service (singing). We go to thier church next Sunday. We had practice last night (I couldn't go) and today. I took my 9yo with me and stopped at Wal-Mart on the way to get him a football to play with during practice (our church is on 3 acres and it's out of the way). Well, I get there and it turns out practice is at the other church (my bad). So we drive down there. This church is in the middle of downtown, lots of houses around and not an area of town I'd let my kids play outside unsupervised. So ds has to just stay inside and look at the Pokemon cards he'd brought with him. If I'd know it was there I'd have never taken him with me. SO anyway, after about 45 minutes he's wandering around, bored, not bothering anyone. He makes his way up front in the sancutary and end up in the pastor's chair behind the pulpit. This woman from their church goes NUTS and tells him to "Get out of that chair and get away from the pulpit!" First off, ds has no clue what a "pulpit" is. Second, what's the big deal??? Another woman from their church tells the first to leave him alone, he's not hurting anyone. Ds then dissapears in the back and when I go find him about 10 minutes later he's got tears in his eyes. Needless to say, I told my pastor ds's upset and we left. Pastor called a little while ago to see how we're both doing. Dh is pretty mad. He said to never take ds to that church again, and he doesn't think I should go back either. My church welcomes kids. We don't mind the occasional interruption of little ones, and we like to hear what they have to say (everyone learns when kids talk! lol). I know not all churches are like that, though, and I respect that. I guess I just need to get this off my chest. We've been going through a lot lately with this ds. He was just diagnosed bipolar about a month ago and while this could have happened with any kid (lots of kids, bipolar or not might have done what he did today) to him, it's yet another time when he was "missunderstood". Anyway, thanx for letting me vent.

By Susan10 on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:04 am:

When we first moved to our town we went church-hopping to see which one we liked. At one church it seemed like the whole congregation hated kids. My son was looking at a picture that was on the wall in the Sunday school room, and this mean-looking old guy told him not to touch anything. Then they started practicing for the Christmas pageant, but the Sunday school ladies wouldn't let the kids write down the words to the songs. Somehow they were going to learn them better with out having them written down. It was really a bummer for my kids. Not at all welcoming. The church we ended up at loves kids. The minister (a woman) has two sons, and she always tells stories about them. It's nice.

One more thing, though. Maybe the lady who yelled at your son was just a bad apple, and not representative of the whole church?

By Dana on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 08:26 am:

Oh, hugs, Cat. Your poor son. I would probably cry too. I think I would just let your son take the lead on this one. Ask him if is interested in going to that church again or not. One mean old lady in the group doesn't mean that everyone is like her.

Perhaps your pastor at your church could do a little "class" on what a pulpit is and how it is used and why. Let all the kids walk up there, sit in the chair and what not. You know knowledge is very impowering. It might help your son to feel better everything.

Hugs to him. And let him know I would have done the same thing at his age. Those big chairs do look comfy....esp when you bored.

By Ginny~moderator on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 09:12 am:

It does sound to me like this was just one person, especially since the other woman told her to leave your son alone because he wasn't doing any harm (which was true). And the Pastor seems concerned.

What an unpleasant event for your son and for you, and what an unpleasant person. But, I don't know that I'd blame the whole church for it.

And, for heaven's sake, the pastor's chair isn't the altar. It is certainly not holy.

I think this woman is just one of those people who thinks children should be neither seen nor heard and doesn't have the good manners to speak politely to a stranger. I'd feel sorry for her if she wasn't such a jerk.

By Marg on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 08:20 pm:

Dear Cat,

That woman sounds like a woman we have in our church who is in her 70's and forgets that KIDS ARE KIDS THEY ARE NOT ADULTS.

You know the church does not physically belong to anyone. It is God's church. People often forget that. I know kids shouldn't be in everything, however, if they are not hurting anything.

It just makes me sooo mad. I told the woman off in our church a couple of weeks ago. She complains about my dd (who's 3). She ran through the sanctuary to see her grandpa a couple of weeks ago. And everyone thought it was so cute. But when dd came back into Sunday School this woman went off on my 3 yo for running through church. It's not like my 3 yo ran so fast, bumped into anyone or knocked something over.

I love kids. I would rather work with kids that most people my age. I believe people can truly forget what it was like to be a child. I often get upset with my dd because of how people react or treat her

By Marg on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

I should say to everyone, that one apple does spoil the whole church.

That's how our church has always been.

Most of our congregation is 45+ years old. We only have 5 kids in our Sunday School and everyone wonders why we don't have more kids. It is really because of one person. The kids who leave when they are older do not come back or wait for years to come back.

We have no babies in our church, can you guess why? Mothers feel guilty when their little ones cry.

We are at a cross road right now. My husband wants to switch churches because of this sole purpose. Our girls go to a small, private school that is actual in a small church. He is seriously thinking of going to church there. I wouldn't mind. But there are several factors...I grew up in this church, I would miss everyone, I have a calling in that church and I feel this woman would win if we walked away.

Any thoughts... Really confused and saddened if this is how a lot of churches are these days. I thought it was only our church.

Just think how God feels...

By Dawnk777 on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 08:38 pm:

Our church is always full of little kids! Little ones grow up, but there are always new little ones to take their place! We have been there 10 years, so the babies when we started are now in 4th or 5th grade! LOL! They grow up so darned fast.

By Cat on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:34 pm:

Thanx for all the input and hugs. I really don't think ds will want to go back there. I wouldn't blame him. Another girl at my church asked me this morning if we were both all right. I told her, You know, of all the things he "could" have been doing and getting into, this really should have been nothing. She agreed, and said to some churches the pulpit is "sacred". Whatever. Our pastor is great. He's has always said that our church doesn't "belong" to anyone but God and if someone in our congergation needed to use any place in that church, including his office, they could because it's everyone's building. I don't think everyone at this other church felt the same way this woman did. Even their pastor looked kind of surprised at her reaction. I think Ginny hit it on the head that this woman probably thinks children shouldn't be seen or heard. Sad. I will probably go next Sunday night to the exchange. Yes, I'm hurt and upset (Dana, I almost did cry and it still tears me up when I think about it), but I really don't think holding a grudge is the right thing to do. Like they say, Let go and Let God.

By Hol on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:51 pm:

Cat--You have a more forgiving nature than I do, I guess. As the mother of TWO bipolar DS's, I TOTALLY understand what incidents like that can do! What a PETTY woman! He WASN'T doing anything wrong! I think that I would make a phone call to the pastor of THAT church, and let him know about it. True, HE isn't responsible for what happened. She is probably just a MISERABLE old coot, who hates kids. However, maybe a sermon is in order, in that church, about hospitality to visitors.
When you have a child with a disability, you HAVE to advocate for them, and be a real "fly in the ointment", if you have to be. People need to be made AWARE. That's how they gain sensitivity to others. You might spare some OTHER child (and MOM) from being humiliated. I'm afraid that too many "church people" expect everyone to be PERFECT.

By Susan10 on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 11:15 pm:

Marg, I would go to the church that feels most comfortable, regardless of how long you've been at your current church. I know how hard it is to switch, but it shouldn't be a bummer to go. I grew up Lutheran, my parents, who were born in Czechoslovakia, were both Lutheran, I have ancestors buried in the Lutheran church cemetary in Czechoslovakia, I was baptized Lutheran, etc, you get the picture. But the Lutheran church in our town was WAY too dour. So I went to the Methodist church and it had a much better atmosphere, and we really enjoy the minister and congregation, and the great kids programs. We've been going for 10 years, and I'm still not a member. I just can't get over the mental block that I'm Lutheran.

By the way, are you impressed that I can spell Czechoslovakia? Too bad it's not a country anymore...

By Mommyathome on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 03:29 pm:

Our church is full of DK's also. That's what I love about it! There are probably over 40-50 kids that come on a regular basis. There is always "kid noise" at church and no-one minds. Of course if there is a screaming baby/child or one that is acting out, then it's only polite to take them out until things calm down. But a little crying here and there and some kid voices are not a big deal.

I am very comfortable there with all 3 of my kids.

I would say go to whatever church your family feels the most comfortable in. If you aren't comfortable there, then you probably won't learn as much.

By Cat on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:37 pm:

Well, here's how it's going to go. Dh does not want me to go. So I talked to my pastor and I will not be going. I told my pastor that I don't have any hard feelings for the other church or any of the people there, but I don't want to go against my dh's wishes and he agreed that I shouldn't go. These exchanges in the past two years have been great. We've had about 20 people from our church go to theirs (we are small and only have about 75 people total) and they usually send about 30 to ours. This time, however, the only ones going are the pastor and one other woman. I would have made three. I hope this doesn't discourage them from coming to our church in the spring. Thanx again for all the input.