OK, I need help. My dd is 8 now, and I have never been one to insist on a totally clean room (it's hers and some messiness is normal, IMO), but we are now at the point where there is little to no room to get around in there, and her clutter is overtaking her. I know I've let it get out of hand, that's not the issue. I honestly don't know how to start to help her reduce her clutter. She keeps every little Happy Meal toy, piece of paper, wrapper, rock, pencil, bird feather, craft project, doll shoe, etc. that she ever received. I have on occasion gone in and thrown away the paper stuff, but when I talk to her about putting some of her less played-with toys in the basement, she freaks out. Plus, she knows what she has! I threw away something yesterday while she was at school, and it was the first thing she asked about when she went up to her room! I don't want to trash it all while she's gone, since it's her stuff, but it's affecting her and I want her to learn some organizational skills. Her big sister never had this problem (can you say anal?) but this kid has inherited all of her dad's slobby tendencies. Where to start? Any ideas? TIA

By Karen55 on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 12:55 pm:

Janet, I feel your *pain*! Both my girls were that way. Jules, of course, has grown out of it and is a Flylady fan now. Jen, on the other hand, has a bedroom that would be condemned by the Board of Health. I have tried everything I can thing of: nagging, demanding, bargaining, rewarding, punishing, leaving it alone, picking up whatever she leaves in the rest of the house and tossing it in there, going in periodically and throwing stuff out, trying to help her get organized and helping her clean it up, and finally, just closing the door.

It has been a thorn in my side for a LONG time now. It got to the point where it was a constant battle between us. Lately I just leave the door closed. I am of the opinion that she's going to be a little pig until she actually lives on her own and can't stand to live with herself anymore. Jules was that way, not quite as bad though.

Everyone has a different manner in which they choose to deal with that. I chose to see it as one of the lesser battles in the grand scheme of things in MY life. Not that it doesn't bug me that her room is a pigpen, but I decided to work on other issues with her that I considered more important than a messy room.

One thing I *think* that ties in to Jen's sloppiness is that this is something she feels she has control over. And I was trying to control it for the longest time, so we were basically having a battle of wills.

The only suggestion I can give you is to get some containers/boxes/crates for her to put things in and help her get things straightened out. If there is stuff that she want's displayed, add a shelf or two on the walls.

Unfortunately nothing I've tried has worked for me, but hopefully someone else will post with something that will help BOTH of us!

By Tonya on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 01:00 pm:

I was like this when I was growing up and from my point of view leave it alone. It is her room and she can live how she wants. Keep her door closed and tell her that you will stay out but if there are cloths on the floor oh well they don't get washed. She will grow out of this but not until she is ready and the longer you push the longer it will be until she is ready. When she starts really wanting to have friends over she wil lclean her room she doesn't want to be embarassed by this no more than you do but I say leave it. As Karen said pick your battles and this I promise you is not one. Her room her mess just keep the door closed at all times so no one else sees it and tell her until it looks prsentable her door must remain closed even when she is in there.

By Kaye on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 03:39 pm:

I disagree with the above advice. I was this way too, and can say as an adult I am finally dealing with this bad habit. First I think it is really important to teach our kids what matters in life and stuff is not it! Sure she is a kid and there are going to be toys that are really important, but at some point you have to teach them to really be in control. My son is more messy by nature and he also kept everything. I finally sat down with him and said, dear, I love you, I know your like your stuff, but frankly we are running out of space. We went through his stack of papers (his valentines from teh past 2 school years, candy wrappers from so and so, etc) and said okay, why do you have this? It brings back a neat memory, okay well do you need that object to have that memory? If the answer was yes, then I would ask do you need to hold that object or can we take a picture. So lots of things we got to just toss, several things we took digital pictures of, and then some things went in a box. The other thing that I had to give up on was all of my cute organization tubs. I really prefer to have all of the blocks in one tub, the legos in another, etc. Well this didn't work for him. We got him a big toy box and he throws most everything in it (no legos..whew). Now this wouldn't work for me, but for him it is a God send, he can toss it all out and toss it all back in, a contained mess. He sure has a long way to go, but I do feel like he is getting the right idea. Another big plus, if their floors are picked up, I vacuum weekly, change sheets weekly, do the windos and dust and the kids really like me to "clean" their rooms. The upside for me...my kids aren't sick near as much! I also feel like they sleep better when their room is clean. Now I do wish I could keep this up for everyone, my room included. I am so far from anal and every day is a struggle for me, but really every thing having a place is pretty important when it comes to most things in life.

By Annie2 on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 06:51 pm:

My 12 year old is this way. It drives my bananas.
Her room is an absolute pig sty.

She will clean it up, meaning she stuffs everything into her drawers and closet. She will clean it for hours, gets side-tracked, of course, but it is at least tidy. Then an hour later her drawers are open, project remains on floor, etc.

I am not giving up. I don't expect her room to be immaculate, but at least "enterable". She wanted to redo it at the beginning of the summer. I said "sure, as long as you keep it half decent for at least two weeks". No plans in the future. LOL

I can not just let her have her room the mess that she likes. I have three other kids. If I let her get away with a huge mess, that will allow them to start letting up on their rooms....I can not live that way. However, I do cut her alot of slack because I know it is in her nature to be this way. I do close the door alot.

I say, keep at your dd. Make sure she has enough storage space and folders for her papers, under bed boxes for things, shelves for displays.

Although she may never be a neat person, at least she may become more organized.
Good Luck!

By Pamt on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:07 pm:

Well, here's a testimonial from Flylady today re: this very issue. I know this is very true of my oldest DS's room (and he has NO storage space!). We have already calendar-ed the weekend of 9/19 to paint and redecorate his room which includes a total decluttering.

Here's flylady:
Dear Flylady and Crew,

I've been fluttering for about 9 months now and the change in my
life, my home and most of all my attitude has been nothing short of
astonishing. Even my DH is one of your biggest fans. He tells anyone
who will listen about the remarkable change in me, his "bride"!
(that's what he calls me.)

Anyway, through this time as the house got cleaner and the clutter
disappeared DS (16)'s room began to look worse and worse. He is more
of a clutterbug than I ever was - he has kept every blessed school
paper he's ever done - he has kept every souvenir he's ever bought.
You get the picture. Rarely a path to walk through!

After reading one of your essays about the kids rooms, I sat down and
talked with him about how I had been wrong in the past with my
stinkin thinkin and asked him to forgive me. We divided his room
into zones, we talked about criteria for keeping something, I gave
him a timer, I offered to help. Nothing happened except the piles got
higher. After several weeks of coaching and coaxing (no yelling) I
told him if he wasn't going to clean it, I was and he had a limited
time to get with it. I think you know what happened next....

He went on a trip with his Dad. I got in there and using the zones
and the timer and my duster and vacuum (the dust was unbelieveable),
had the room neat and tidy in two days. I moved in an oak desk and
matching bookcases he had wanted that we were storing downstairs.
When he came home, he said "Mom this is exactly what I've wanted but
I didn't know it." You see I figured out he was just completely
OVERWHELMED by it. He needed a reset button!

Then he went on to say "I think this is really gonna help me!" And
asked me to do the same thing in his room at Dad's (we're divorced)
and I did. We made an agreement that if he kept his room (my house)
picked up I would keep it vacuumed and dusted. We talked again about
little steps that build into routines that make your life so much
better. Guess what?

Every single day since then (a month or so) he has gotten up, made
his bed, brought down his dirty clothes. I never told him what to do -
- he developed his routines himself! He has his homework papers done
and in his bookbag before he goes to bed. He has his clothes picked
out for the next day. He has not missed an assignment at school
(previously a MAJOR issue) because his papers, his books, his
thoughts, his LIFE is organized! He has joined the Academic Team and
several other extra curricular activities. This is far and away the
VERY best start to a school year he's ever had.

When he said to me, "Mom this isn't like me -- I'm so organized"
(with a Very Big Grin) I responded by telling him that the very
coolest thing about being human is that if we will we CAN change
ourselves. It only takes 15 minutes at a time.

Thank you! thank you! thank you! from the bottom of my heart. You've
brought peace to my worl! My whole family has benefitted (even exDH)
from the lessons you've taught. You are an absolute blessing to the
world!

Flybaby in GA

****************************************
FlyLady here: We all get overwhelmed by our clutter. This is why
getting a friend to help is always a good idea. Your children's
mental health is very important. Their clutter can paralzye them just
like your clutter does you. THEY ARE NOT IMMUNE TO THE TORTURES OF
CLUTTER!

Many people think that is awful to declutter their children's rooms
because you are invading their privacy. Here is my thought on this.
It is your home and if the clutter is hurting your baby then it is
your responsiblity to protect your child. Wouldn't you protect your
child from a poisonous snake spider. The only difference is that the
poison that is attacking your baby belongs to him or her. The Clutter
is in a disguise: a Wolf in sheep's clothing!!! Stay vigilant and
protect your children from their own clutter.

You may find that your child will blossom without this clutter
holding them back.


You are not behind! I don't want you to try to catch up; I just want you to jump in where we are. O.K.?

By Pamt on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

BTW, Flylady's rules for what to keep are "do you use it?" and "does it bring you joy?" I can't imagine that old happy meal toys and candy wrappers bring much joy. Since I've been decluttering I am much more at peace. I love the clean sleek look of not having stuff all over the place. Also, it IS very overwhelming to tackle a room when it gets out of control. Sometimes I don't know how to start myself---imagine how overwhelming it is for a little one! HTH

By Karen~moderator on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:41 pm:

Good points... and I do know for a fact that the state of Jen's room had completely overwhelmed her. But after several attempts by me to help her, and several attempts by me alone, which included tossing stuff out, it's become too frustrating for me to constantly be on her back about it. We have shelves, we have bookcases, I organized her closet - nothing seemed to stay that way for more than 24 hours. So, wrong or not, I have given up on this particular room, at least for the time being. I've got plenty of other things to stress over right now and this one will have to wait.

By Bobbie on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:00 pm:

Karen, I think Jen was as you said yourself controling the one thing she could. I remember a lot of your battles with her over this issue. Soon the house will be all yours.

I really think that a 9 year old can be retrained but it is going to take some work. First of all a nice long talk about all this and finding out what she is thinking when it comes to all this is key. If it is just that she can't do it herself because she is overwhelmed then it is time to step in. I think that crates and boxes and toy boxes are a good thing. Out of site out of mind. Maybe get her to look for the real reasons behind keeping the items. And maybe suggest a yard sale of her things (which she can take the profits and get something she really wants) Or maybe a special purchase by mom and dad (new desk, dresser, special chair for her room). Or even donation to the good will to help the needy.

And I really agree with Karen. Although this is a terrible habit to allow. Some times it just isn't worth the fight. I have a couple of people in my life that were major pigs as children and now as adults they have no originization skills at all. One of the people have little to no items in their house. Because they don't know how to care for things they simply just don't keep anything now. Afraid of what the house will look like otherwise. And the other person... Oh my word..... Lets just say once a month I take a Saturday and I go down and clean the main living area's of her house... Her house sounds like your DD's room. And she is 32 years old, married and has two children. Whom she is raising to be just like her. She knows the house is terrible she just never learned how to take care of things like she should have. Her mom always (until she graduated) cleaned her room. And her moms house was spotless. So it is a simple case of never learning the skills. I could tell you some stories about how clueless this woman is about typical cleaning that would make you role your eyes. But I will just say, start out by talking to your dd and finding out why she is doing this. And I promise you this is probably carring over at school... And I wouldn't expect it to become a work of art. But I think there needs to be some kind of a line drawn in the sand for sure.. And you surely do not want to be the one to have to keep it clean and you shouldn't have to be. She has to learn to take care of herself. Even in a state of clutter if that is what it takes. Good luck... and small steps are best...

By Susan10 on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:02 pm:

I agree with the people who say to not make this a big battle, and I also agree with the people who say to get organzed. Since she's only 8, I think that's to young to say "Go clean up your room." It's to vague. What stuff? Where does it go? Anyway, I think if there's a place for everything, like get a plastic box that's big enough, and that's where the McDonald toys go. (Eventually, when she realizes she never goes in this box, you can give it to the Goodwill.) Get those plastic drawers for crafts and stuff, decide what goes in each drawer (paper and pencils, jewelry, hats, etc.) Then every now and then when you have the energy, you can go in there with her and say, "You put the jewelry and toys in the drawers, I'll hang up your clothes." That's as far as I go, because my daughter is a slob, but I got yelled at way too much as a kid about my room. That was basically my relationship with my mom...getting yelled at about my room. It had nothing to do with how neat/messy I am today, either. Good luck. I'm in the same boat.

By Bobbie on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:36 pm:

I think there is a diffrence between a messy room and knowing orginization skills. In my one persons life she learned NO orginization skills her mom did everything for her. Which is why I suggest talking to her and finding out what the root of this is. Then set up a plan of action or draw the line in the sand as I put it. Some things have to be acceptable as it is her room to the point she needs to be in control of it. But to just let it ride is not a good deal either. My room as a kid was not spotless. And I got a lot of crap from my mom over it too. But compaired to some of the rooms I have been in my room looked like a operating room. The thing is.. My mom tried to dominate me when it came to HER house. She would insist I clean my room and being a kid I would not do it and when I did it wasn't the way she liked it. So like Susan my mom and I spent to much time fighting over something that is really petty in the big skeem of life. So the reason behind talking to her is to see why she thinks she is doing it and see if it is really an issue that needs to be a major concern. And not to make it such and issue as to it having to be perfect. A messy room can cause a lot of family fueding that carries over into everything else in the relationship. Just not worth it........... But there has to be a limit to the amount of mess aloud. At work her drawers might be messy but her desk top has to be presentable to the world... Orginization skills are very important and they effect every aspect of your life.

By Dawnk777 on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:55 pm:

Younger dd had a box in he room that was a black hole. We finally went through the stuff together and found it was mostly happy meal toy "parts!" Not even intact happy meal toys, but pieces. We tossed out nearly everything in that box!

By Janet on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:31 am:

This gives me some ideas to work with...I have a friend who IMHO is extremely controlling, and she has from Day One kept her dd's room the way SHE wants it. When her dd went to camp this summer, my friend went straight into her room and started removing and re-organizing. I think that's horrible, and perhaps that's why I've been so reluctant to do anything in my dd's room. But I agree with FlyLady's assessment of clutter becoming overwhelming and harming a child. And Pam, you're right on about thinking if it's too much for me, what is it for her! On the downside, I don't think there are enough plastic tubs in the world to hold everything! LOL Wish me luck...

By Karen~moderator on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:37 am:

LOL at the *black hole* Dawn! Both my kids had/have drawers like that!

Funny thing, my DS has always kept his room neat, since he was a little guy. I tried to teach them all the same things, and the girls seem to have this need to control their rooms. Jules and I battled constantly when she was young, now she's telling me stuff that Micah does, that she USED to do, that drives her nuts. Plus, she is into FlyLady now, and she is always telling me *NOW I understand why you always told me to do this or that*. Hopefully one day soon, Jen will come to this realization. Now that she's staying with her dad during the week for college, I'll probably go into that room and do some serious cleaning and organizing yet again. But for now, I choose not to fight with her about it. It's just not worth it, for me.

By Pamt on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:53 am:

Janet, check out http://www.flylady.net. Now on my 3rd try with her I finally *get it.* I would suggest decluttering with your DD. Flylady is big on doing things in 15 minute increments with the mindset "you can do ANYTHING for 15 minutes." So set the timer for 15 minutes and tell DD that together you will clean off the top of her dresser, clean out her bookcases, whatever. Then have 3 boxes: put away, give away, throw away. If she wants to put an item in the "put away" box, she has to answer "does it bring me joy?" and "do I use it?" (Key word being USE it...not "maybe someday in 10 yrs it might come in handy if I am ever on an archeological expedition in New Guinea" kind of use ). When the timer dings you stop and do something else fun. Later 15 mintues again...baby steps, little by little and it WILL get done. Start at one point in the room and work clockwise, not allowing yourself to skip over the most unpleasant parts. My 2 boys have actually gotten to enjoy this decluttering because they love how their room looks, they can actually find things, and we spend some time together and talk and act silly in the process. You really shouldn't have to buy many tubs or organizers because most of the stuff is probably junk that can be thrown away or given away to bless someone else. Have fun!! When we do DS's room in a few weeks I'll try to take pics along the way because his room is truly a PIT right now. Just want you to know I am not a perfect declutterer yet, but am on the road to recovery and see what a difference it makes!

By Conni on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:57 am:

I didnt read all posts, so sorry if i am repeating. Why not just give her a couple of task a day to complete until you can both see the light?? Or the floor in this case.

I have my boys do certain things everyday. (such as pick up the bathroom after their showers, or making their beds) But when their rooms are really bad it overwhelms them for me to say 'go clean your room'. They dont even know where to begin. So On Monday might say, get all the clothes off your floor. Clean clothes need to be put away, dirty ones in your laundry basket. On TUesday I have them bring down trash cans and pick up all toys off floor. On Wed I have them clean off night stand/dresser/and desks. Thursday dust furniture and vacuum.

Now this is what we do on a good week of course. LOL We have been so busy with school starting, piano lessons, football practice, that I have REALLY let them slack off. So this weekend we are doing an all morning cleaning with me helping them both so we can get it done quickly and go have fun!

Good luck!

By Jtw on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 01:53 am:

Well, I can see how this would be annoying. I used to be a real slob until I had kids. We would let the dishes pile up until you couldn't fit another dish on the counter. I used to say, "Why make the bed? You are just going to mess it up again tonight anyway." I am so glad having kids has made me more responsible! Here are some tips I have learned.
*Try to break it up into little projects. Like maybe one weekend you could clean off the dresser, and the next clean under the bed. Then it won't take the whole entire weekend.
*Tell her you are going to only work on it for 10 minutes. Then start doing something. By the time you remember to look at the clock chances are it will be way past 10 minutes.
*For wrappers and things like that scan them and shrink them. The print them out and put them in a 3 ring binder. Or you could also tape the things to paper and put them in a binder. Or put them in an expandable envelope (like a manilla folder) and 3 hole punch it and put it in a binder. You could have envelopes for different categories, such as friend stuff, school stuff, etc.
* Have her put some stuff she hasn't used in a while in a box. Then tape it closed and put it away. If she doesn't look for the stuff within six months throw it out. Don't even open it. Just tosss it. (I have tossed out boxes that I haven't looked in since we moved 5 yrs. ago without looking. So far I haven't missed anything!)
* Cut her some slack. (If you can J)Remember that everything she owns is contained in one room. If all of your stuff was in one room it might get pretty messy too!
I hope these tips help. They helped me, and I was a hopeless mess before!

By Janet on Thursday, September 4, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

We had an interesting turn of events last night that I wanted to share. DD announced she was going to turn her closet into a laboratory for her science experiments. I told her that would be a neat trick, since it's packed with toys, clothes, etc. So she said why not get some boxes to put it all in? I gave her a bunch of laundry baskets, and about an hour later, she proudly showed me her converted closet (I won't go into details, but it's cute). The downside was, all of her things were in baskets in the middle of her room. Her big sister asked me where she was going to put it all, and I told her that after today, I didn't think she'd have as much stuff to deal with (my day off work). So today, I spent 2 hours going through toys and stuff, and collecte (ready for this?) FIVE TRASH BAGS OF JUNK!! We're talking Happy Meal toys, old papers, etc. that is now out of the house! Then I hung her clothes in the hall closet, fished her old toddler books out of her bookcase and added some cool chapter books to read (she's 8) and then put up a couple of posters we'd been meaning to get to. So! Even though she's still got a bunch of toys and stuff in her room, it's at least contained and most of the JUNK is gone!!! Woo hoo!!! Now we see if we can establish a maintenance program... LOL

By Dawnk777 on Thursday, September 4, 2003 - 09:45 pm:

Cool! I need to do that with 11 dd's closet. We did get rid of one ugly box in her room that was filled with Happy Meal Toy "parts!" Not one intact toy in that box! Her closet is also filled with junk that used to be in her room. She would like to be rid of it, too. I suppose a box a night wouldn't be that painful for her or me.

By Janet on Friday, September 5, 2003 - 09:20 am:

If she wants to be rid of it, then seize the opportunity, girlfriend!