Discipline/punishments
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I am having a tough time being as mean as I need to be with my dd lately. She is really struggling in one class, and it isn't knowledge but compliance. All a's in pre AP classes and 1 high school class (she is an 8th grader) and then FAILING science due to not turning in work. Geesh!
Anyway, so I was just needing a new list of ideas for how to discipline and punish. What are yall doing that works these days? If you take away priviledges how long do you do so? We are graded every 9 weeks, we kind of get interim reports but they aren't highly accurate and very teacher dependent on how timely they put in grades. 9 weeks seems like a long time to me. And when you take away things like going over to friends etc, does this include babysitting?
Really I just want to know what works for you. I am all out of ideas and need to know things I do are reasonable!
For example, I found out about grades today. Reporting period ends friday, so grades have to be final by then. So she has pretty much lost the privildege to be out of her room other than meals and school. She can come and do homework at the table. But no radio, no tv, etc. She has a mandatory science study/organiztion time of 30 minutes plus any teacher assigned work. No phone, no computer. Until we see the new grades.
The kicker is she has a plane ticket to fly out to see her grandfather for thanksgiving week. Really it helps me out to have her gone, the boys have a busy weekend that weekend, plus she needs to practice golf and I just won't have the time. Do I take this away from her? It is fun, but it is also for me and her grandfather.
I have talked to the teacher and the counselor and the deal is simply she is in a class of boys (35 students, she is 1 of 2 girls) She is the shy one, so not flirting, just not really participating. The teacher is tough, papers have to be turned in at the beginning of class or it is 20% off. So if a paper is due monday morning and she turns it in on tuesday at 10, she gets a 0. It is her first period class and she just doesn't have her act together that early. She isn't a morning kid. So I know what she needs is to figure out how to get it together, but all the teaching in the world isn't doing it, and we need more motivation to get her going. UGh.
It hasn't been a good last month for my family, lots of stuff going on. Nothing that really has affected her, or that she shouldn't move past, but for momma, this isn't what I need to deal with right now. I am so emotional about it and it is all I can do to keep it together in front of her. I am just so ANGRY about her complete disobedience to me and her teacher.
Anyway, so other mom's of teens, what works?!?!
My 8th grader is Mr. Conscientious, but I have these issues with my 5th grader. We just have to stay on his tail about and not trust his word when we ask if he's finished his homework. He has to show it to us. Perhaps you could try a little micromanaging for awhile and then ease off and make her more responsible. The worst (most embarrassing and traumatic) punishment that works for my son when he doesn't turn in work is that we make him write a note of apology to his teacher saying that he understands when he doesn't do his work that it shows a lack of respect and then he has to outline how he will change in that regard. He hates that and it usually works...for awhile at least.
As for visiting grandpa, that's a hard call. What about if you still let her go, but she has to now chip in half or all of the plane fare because you *would* take that privilege away, but you've already paid for the ticket and it's nonrefundable.
Well, I don't have a teen yet. The absolute worst punishment I ever got was when I was 16. Is she old enough to stay home while you do boring things? My mom made me go to every one of my brothers sports practices, every minor trip to the store, etc. She said I couldn't even be trusted to be left alone for a minute. It was worse than being grounded. Good luck.
Not there yet either, but what extra curricular activities is she in, if any? You mentioned having to practice golf. Why does she need to practice? Is she in a club or playing that sport?
I was in several extra-curricular activities from 5th grade on and the rule at our house was that you had to maintain certain grades or you lost the extra curriculars. I did NOT want that. For instance, if she's in band and is still able to go to band practice, participate with all of that, then it's still like 'having fun', you know?
I like the idea on the grandpa thing that Pam mentioned, maybe work off the portion of the trip that she would be required to pay for if she doesn't babysit or something like that for $.
I would let her go to her grandfather at Thanksgiving. As you say, it is as much for her grandfather and you as it is for her. And, it's her grandfather - it is, I suggest, important to both of them to build a relationship and a host of memories.
Second, if she were my daughter, I would think about trying to get her transferred to a different science class. If she is getting A grades in her other classes and this is the only class where she has problems, I suggest that she is failing to do the work or failing to turn it in for reasons having nothing to do with her ability to do the work or her willingness to do the work. One of two girls - and the shy one - in a class of 35 students ... I would wonder what is going on in that class in terms of student interaction. Is she being teased, in class or outside the class? Are some of the boys being jerks? Is there someone she will talk with about how she feels about this class?
I had two experiences with a kid not doing well in one specific class, with my middle son. The first was when he was in an AP after-school class in 5th grade and he was doing very poorly. When he finally told me and we talked, it turned out that most of the parents helped the kids with their projects - I didn't. So the other kids were getting As on their projects and he was getting Bs and Cs, and he believed it was because the other kids' parents were doing a big part of the work. While I don't generally believe in "quitting", sometimes I do when there is a good reason and it's been thought out, and I allowed him to drop out of that class. He was a whole lot happier, and continued to get As in everything else. He took AP math in 7th and 8th grades, and got As in that.
The second time was in 9th grade, when he got a D in Chemistry for the first marking period. It turned out that (1) he really disliked the teacher so (2) he wasn't turning in the work. His older brother was a chemistry "genius", so when middle son complained about the way the teacher taught the class, I asked older son to go over it with him - the book, how the teacher was teaching. Older son listened and asked questons, and told us that the teacher was not teaching properly - he was jumping around between chapters and not following a "natural" progression of how one learns chemistry. So I made a deal with middle son - you do your best and turn in all your homework for the next marking period, getting tutoring from your older brother (and it was very painful for middle son to ask older brother for help), and we will see about getting you into another class at the end of the marking period. He kept his part of the deal, did all the homework and turned in all the work on time, and still got a D. I set up a meeting with the teacher, and the first thing the teacher said was "A lot of boys are here at Central who don't really meet the criteria and got in by pull." (Central is the magnet school for bright, high-grade kids in Philadelphia.) I replied - well, [middle son] had all As from 5th grade on, is above the 95% percentile on standardized tests, and got a 97% on the entrance exam, so I'm not sure what you mean by not meeting the criteria." That ended that discussion. Then the teacher pulled out his grade book and said "He didn't turn in his homework. He got incompletes for homework on [date, date, date etc.] Middle son pulled out the "incomplete" homework from his backpack, with the teacher's grades on each page (usually 80% to 95%) for about 20 homework dates where the teacher had marked incomplete. The teacher refused, however, to change the marks in his grade book. The kicker was the next day, when the teacher announced in class "Some people would rather bring their mommies in to fix things for them than to do the work." I immediately went to the department head, explained what had happened - especially with the homework - repeated what the teacher said in class, and said "I don't like to judge a teacher, but I do think this was less than professional." In two days middle son was in another Chemistry class. Chem (science in general) was never one of his favorite subjects, but he did all the work and got tutoring from his brother, and at the end of the (3 marking period) semester his grade was a C, and the next semester it was a B. I tell you these long stories to suggest that there can be a lot more going on in the class than either the teacher or your child is telling you, and I think you ought to try to find out what it is.
By the way, if there is a 20% penalty for not turning in homework at the beginning of class, how does it get to 0 at 10 a.m. the next day? What is the progression of reducing the grade?
The progression is supposed to be 20%, the first day late, 40% the second day late and then a 0 the third day. But her marking points are 20% the end of class, 40% the next am and then a zero by the end of class.
I did go speak to the couselor last week about her being moved. The kicker is she has to move to a regular class, she really doesn't want that. She loves science. There is not another teacher that teaches preAP. School policy is if she fails the 9 weeks she gets kicked out, so it will happen by next week more than likely.
Reds, she really doesn't do extracuricular activities. She is in the band, but it is a class and a grade, if you don't show up to concerts, football games (there is only 1 to go to), your grade reflects that. She does play on the golf team in the spring. You cannot try out if you are not passing your classes. Which is the other reason this is a big deal to me, I don't want to deal with this during golf season. HOwever golf is one of those things if you don't keep in practice you really show it on the course. Life here is VERY competitive. Golf is the least competitive sport, there will be 25 girls try out for 5 spots. For vollyball there were 85 trying out for 12 spots.
I do like Rayelle's idea of dragging her places. I don't do too much running once the kids are home, but sometimes I do.
Pam, hmmm writing a note. Interesting. My dd is pretty stubborn, I bet the act of getting her to write a note would not be fun. I will have to think of that.
Ginny, I suspect she is having an issue with the boys. Unfortunatly I do not think it is a big deal, but a perceived deal for her. She really hates being "noticed" and she is definitely noticed.
My other struggle is, although we can have her moved (and by grades I think it will happen), in high school that is NOT true. Once you register for classes, you only have 10 days, but then you are there for the duration of the class. So I just worry about quiting and teaching her that is an option, because after this it is not.
From what you have said, I would have a hard time punishing her for her grades. If the problem is the class--35 kids, 1 of 2 girls, issues with the boys (perceived or actual, it is very real to her)--all the punishment in the world will not help. Although she may not want to switch classes, it sounds like that is probably what is going to happen, and I would bet this will turn itself around once she is in new surroundings. She will probably find herself more motivated to get the work done on time if she is in a class she is more comfortable in. If the damage is done at this point and she will be switched, just keep up with her work--micromanage a bit as Pam suggested--just to make sure she is doing what she is supposed to. If she stays in the current class, get a tutor and help her through it from that angle.
And definitely let her go see her grandfather. That is precious time together...do not take that away.
Good luck...
Ditto Melanie!
I wouldn't tell her that you're going to let her see her grandfather...yet...tell her she needs to bring her grade up by then and you should definitely be able to get weekly reports from the teacher if you call/email and ask. I used to do this all the time. That way, she has to work for it.
And, ditto with extra curricular activities. I also like the idea of apology letters to the teacher. She'll definitely think twice about being lazy about turning in her work and the teacher will feel respected and know you are doing all you can at home. Teachers loooove that...sometimes we feel we're doing all we can and wish we had more support from parents.
(PS- I'm appalled that she is in a class with only 1-2 girls??? Some counselor should be fired. I've NEVER heard of that. They have to take that into consideration when filling classes. I would definitely have a word with the principal...that poor teacher too...sorry, but boys are typically a handful in class.)
"The progression is supposed to be 20%, the first day late, 40% the second day late and then a 0 the third day. But her marking points are 20% the end of class, 40% the next am and then a zero by the end of class. "
It sounds like her grade should be 80 at the beginning of the Tuesday class, 60 at the end of the Tuesday class, and 40 at the beginning of the Wednesday class and 0 at the end of the Wednesday class, not 0 at the end of the Tuesday class. Something is not right here. Or I am not understanding this schedule.
I agree with Heidi, how did it happen that there are only 2 girls in this class? That bothers me - a lot.
It sounds like she is going to be moved to the regular class no matter what, given her grade. I suggest what she needs to do is work her butt off in the regular class, and try to take this as a learning experience in the long run.
I feel very strongly that the visit with her grandpa should not be taken into consideration in any way as discipline. For one thing, how are you going to tell grandpa? I'll be he'd be really unhappy.
I am feeling more and more that your daughter got into a situation she couldn't handle - all those boys and already being shy; that the teacher didn't help in any way (and may not even have noticed); and that this was her way of "fighting back" about a situation that is making her very unhappy and that she doesn't know how to handle in any other way. I strongly suggest that you need to tell her that you suspect there are a lot of things going on about this class that she hasn't talked with you about, and you would like to have her tell you what has been going on - that you will listen without making judgments, without telling her what she "should have done", but just because you really want to know why this happened because it is just so much not like her. You know (and she knows) that her intellectual ability is not the issue, and you know because of her grades in the other classes that doing the work is not the issue, and you would really like to help her explore what has been going on so the two of you know what the issues really are.
I think that for reasons you don't know - and she may not know - there is something about that class that is making her very unhappy and she doesn't know how to deal with it. It may well be that although she loves science and intellectually doesn't want to be moved out the of the class, she has been behaving as she has in order to get out of what may be for her an intolerable situation.
I don't suggest for a minute that this was an appropriate way for her to handle this, but she is only in 8th grade and in the throes of adolescence. And, she may have been afraid to talk with you about it for fear of what you might say.
I'm trying to think of a way to say this nicely and I don't know if I can by just typing. But your very bright, A student daughter who has a good school record is doing very poorly in a class in a subject she loves - and you came here asking for more effective ways to discipline her, rather than ways to find out why this is happening. I really don't want to hurt your feelings, Kaye, but I do want to suggest that you may be looking at it from the wrong end. I think I would also be appalled if my kid, who ha a good school record, suddenly started doing poorly in a class, and probably my first reaction would be to jump on the child, but I hope my - and your - second reaction would be to try to figure out just what is going on and why, and how you can help your child approach this problem - including the problem of a lousy grade in a class where she should be doing very well.
I want to add, Kaye, that I do NOT in any way thing you are a "bad" or uncaring mom. I think the normal first reaction when a child - especially a bright child - is doing poorly in a class is to come down on the child and try to find ways to help the child to "fix" it. It's only because my son forced me to take a second look at things when he was having a problem in a class that I learned that there is another way to look at that kind of situation. I am hoping my experience with my son can be helpful to you.
Hhhmmm..I'm just wondering how being in a class a of all boys is making her not complete her work? Maybe I missed something. Most of the graded work is outside of class, no? It IS strange that there are all boys in the class, I'm not saying that at all, but really the graded work is outside of class, correct? Having a paper handed in on time doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the class, does it? I'm just trying to be clear, not mean. 
Kaye-I understand what you're saying about her her extra-curricular stuff. Doesn't sound like punishment for that applies in this situation.
Ginny, I actually looked at reasons why first. I certainly did consider that angle, because she is doing so well in everything else. However this is a new found thing this year. The past several years not turning in papers was more her norm.
I did sit and talk with her very open and honest two weeks ago. I prasied how good she was doing in all her classes, and science seemed to be a bugga boo. We talked about the teacher, she is tough, we talked about the boys, "they are stupid", I asked mean, stupid, she said "no football players they don't seem to know their heads from their feet". LOL. She is a lot like momma, doesn't handle stupid people well. But after all that, she admitted, organization was her issue, she just isn't "ON" that time of day. So we sat down and really worked on how to make things better. We came up with a new "planner" just for this class, easy to use, a no brainer, we talked about setting a new routine. She was forgetting to do stuff, now we are just forgetting to turn it in. And in all reality she is the only one who can control that. Now I spoke with the teacher two weeks ago. I mentioned that she was shy, and what that means is, if she doesn't turn it in at the beginning of class, then she won't turn it in during the middle of class (she might be noticed). In my perfect world the teacher would say, Nikki, where is your work, eventually she would get more embarrassed by that. But seems the attitude of the teacher is she should know the rules and if she can't follow them, sorry.
The other big issue I think is going on is, the teacher is not following the written grading plan, those time periods are supposed to be days, not class periods. I already talked with the VP about that. But this teacher is harsh, she says, "there is no grace period, if you can't turn this is in by tomorrow it is a zero" So if my dd doesn't turn it in, then she assumes it is a zero anyway and won't turn it in. UGH. Really she just needs to learn to play the game. If you can't get it done on time (which is an entirely different issue, which I thought we had resolved). You still take your chances, turn it in and get the zero on your paper. Give the teacher a chance. But no, my daughter has already made her decision and is very hard headed. Which is why I am looking at punishment options, she really is just being stubborn about this.
Why all boys...well..it is a preap science class. Statistically, which amazes me these are the years girls quit science and math...crazy hight numbers. So In 6th grade, most of the preap classes were 50/50. Now it is much closer to 75/25. Well most of the girls that are in preap are also in the high band, my dd is not. So this throws her to a different schedule. The only other period that was available for her, she is taking high school spanish, so this is her only available section and time of science.
We talked long and hard about switching classes, she really says she doesn't want to. I think there is a grace period after the 9 weeks. But personally I think she is having a teacher conflict and that isn't going to get better. So why be miserable? This is the quote from the teacher about her. I sent a letter, saying I was very concerned about my dd. This behavior was not inline with her other classes this year. I was very careful to explain that I wanted to fix my dd's problem and to give me ideas to do that. (and not blame the teacher). "I personally think that all the 8th graders didn't believe their teachers last year when they said we were going to be tough. A lot of them are finding out the hard way, like Nikki. I'm very tough on them and I want to get them ready for high school."
ugh..i hate school by the way, I miss the crazy toddler days. It was SOO much easier to figure out what to do when they were with you 24/7. I like my sleep now, but geesh, when they are gone more than they are home you just are so left out of their world.
I was very shy when I was your daughter's age. An almost all boy class would have been pure torture to me! (The boys wouldn't even have to do anything, as you say, being noticed and standing out is the hard part.) Add to that, you mentioned she's not a "morning kid". What a way for her to start her day. I would be looking for a way around this class, even if I did enjoy the subject.
I think things have a way of working themselves out. I agree with Melanie. And, I too hope she gets to see her grandfather.:-)
Kaye, thanks for explaining. It sounds like you are already doing what I hoped you would do. And, I'm glad you talked to the VP about the teacher not following the grading schedule. She may be a very good teacher, but "she (the teacher) should know the rules and if she can't follow them", then I think the VP should intervene and tell the teacher that she also has to follow the rules. It's not like the students don't know what the rules are and don't know that the teacher is making her own rules that are different from the school rules, and I suggest that is a bad example.
That your daughter recognizes that organization is a problem for her and is willing to have you work with her on that issue is very good and a good sign for your ability to communicate with her and her willingness to communicate with you.
I still don't think the visit with her grandpa should be part of the discipline. Not least because grandpa would also be losing out, and he didn't do anything to deserve it.
It sounds like she has some tough classes. I've never heard of pre-AP, but AP classes are tough. Is she not doing the work? or is she doing it and forgetting to give it to the teacher? My son was famous for forgetting to turn in work in middle school. I finally bought him a watch with 9 alarms on it, that he set for each class and when they went off he would remember to turn the work in. If the teacher is not following the written grade plan, it's not fair to your dd.
I would absolutely let her go see her grandfather. Middle school is tough, tougher than high school I think, because it's such a transition from elementary school, and in the long run, when she goes to apply for colleges, they are only going to look at her high school grades.
I do have some other organization tips that worked for my son, if you are interested.
PreAP classses are the JR highs prep courses for AP high school classes. Crazy.
I am letting her go see her grandfather. I talked with him. He pretty much said what Ginny said. And mumbled about just keeping her if I can't be nice He and I are very close, as are the two of them. It is so cute to watch her in his country lifestyle, feeding the cows, pick veggies, etc.
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