Hi everyone. I've read all of the posts related to potty training and found some great ideas. If you all don't mind, I would like to present my specific delimma and asks for some feedback. My ds is 3 and a half years old. He goes pee pee in the potty just fine. Poo poo is the problem. Intially he did poo in the potty a few times but then he stopped. I believe he may have had a painful experience from constipation and after that he associates pain with going poo poo in the toilet. He now refuses to go and begs for a diaper. For several months I complied and then one day I ask him if he would try sitting on the potty when he said he needed to go. He agreed. I held him tight and tried whispering his favorite story into his ears to distract him because he was scared stiff. I tried to reassure him everything would be ok but as the feeling that he needed to go grew more intense, he got more scared and eventually started crying and shaking. He was absolutely terrified and nothing I said helped. I couldn't bear to see him that way and just told him he didn't have to go poo in the toilet until HE was ready. Ever since then, he still says he's not ready and I put a diaper on him everytime he needs to go.

Am I doing the right thing by just allowing him to go in his diaper? His nurse suggested that I let him clean up his own diaper and bottom to show how "inconvenient" it is but how can I let him deal with all that mess?? I just can't imagine allowing him to do that. Anyhow, my delimma is this: I really want to enroll him in this preschool program but they only accept kids who are COMPLETELY potty trained. I need to get him trained as quickly as possible before the open slots are taken but I don't want to push him to the point where he is traumatized. I've offered rewards in the form of candy, stickers etc. Nothing works. Someone suggested that I just let him poop in his pants. Has this method worked for anyone in a similar situation as mine? Any suggestions would be helpful!

By Jenn on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:49 pm:

I had the problem with Jessica. Mineral Oil will help loosen the stool, but also give him lots and lots of water. Pear Juice helps also. That was the first thing I had to work on was to make her not uncomfortable going. Then what I did was I made a game out of it. This may sound gross, but I was desperate. She would in the bathroom with me and we made a contest of who could make a louder splash. I would go and ask her if mommy made a splash. She would then after that tell me she had to go and I would go into the bathroom with her, sit on the side of the tub and say, "Okay Jess, let me hear you do a loud splash." After she would go, I would laugh with her and say, "I think you did a bigger splash than mommy." She loved it. Now every time she goes, she will come out and tell me mommy I did a splash.

By Tklinreston on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:57 pm:

Thanks, Jenn. Nothing sounds gross to us mommys. It sounds like a good idea. I will try it. As for his stool, it is almost always soft but I will certainly make sure it stays that way. I AM deperate like you were too? Did you ever try letting her poop in her pants?

By Kate on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

My daughter was the same way. She would do ANYthing to avoid pooping in the POTTY. Although I readily gave her a diaper each time and didn't push her, she ended up on a nightmare ride which we're still on. She began holding back her stools for days and days and would cry so hard when she had to go, but was too scared to. She would turn bright red and grunt, trying to prevent herself from pooping. It was very embarrassing when we were out in public or people were over. She was almost 3 and big for her age, so it looked really weird to have this child who looked about five, straining and grunting in a very odd physical position in the middle of the mall.... She, too, would scream and shake and act totally terrified if she had to poop. At night, while she was ASLEEP, I could watch her body strain in that oh so familiar way, trying to avoid pooping. It was like her body was so desperate to rid itself of the poop that it tried while she was relaxed and asleep. Anyway, we had a consultation with the doctor who put her on Milk of Magnesia at a very high dose, a dose so high it turned the stool to liquid and she was physically unable to hold back. It was a complete MESS, as the diapers, and especially pull ups, could NOT contain the liquidy mess. Eventually she figured out that it didn't hurt, since it was liquid. We kept her like that for four long months, then slooooowly cut back on the dosage. She's never been off some sort of stool softener/laxative and she's now seven. By 3 she was pooping on the potty with less fear, but to this day she tries to hold back her stools. This has given her countless urinary tract infections as the distended rectum pushes on the urinary tube and all the urine isn't able to be emptied out. In other words, it's been a total mess and I urge you to do anything you can to avoid it!! Give him the diaper all the time, don't make any kind of issue out of it, and believe me, not getting into preschool is the least of your problems if he's headed onto this road of constant constipation and stool retention! Look up 'encopresis' in your baby book or do a search. It's what happens when your child is constantly constipated and holds back and eventually the muscle is so weak and lax that NEW stool, which hasn't hardened up yet, will leak out past the old, hard stool (and you would be amazed at how long old stool can sit in your body.....MONTHS!). So, the new stool oozes out past the old, hard, dried up stool, and your child CANNOT control this because the muscle is too damaged and weak and you now have a smelly mess in his underpants. It's an emotional and physical problem that wreaks havoc on a child's life. I would worry more about him getting into Kindergarten without a constipation or encopresis problem, than about preschool. You have the chance, now, to work on the problem. The sooner, the better.

I realize I've gone on and on, but I'm trying to share my experience so you see just what this can all lead to. I wouldn't make him clean his own mess or go in his pants...just give him the diaper when he asks and treat him kindly and matter of factly. I'm serious about losing out on preschool as being NOTHING compared to ending up like we are!! She's still on daily stool softeners and she still holds back and new stool still ooozes past the old into her underpants. And UTIs are a frequent thing.

Good luck.

By Jenn on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 01:17 pm:

I did let Jessica do it in her diapers, but then she went back a step and started peeing in them again. That set us back on potty training. I sat down with her and talked to her about how she is going to be a big girl and all her friends are pooping and peeing in the potty. She told me well I don't want to be a big girl. What I ended up doing was taking her to walmart and I let her pick out her own panties and play make up. We spent one day one on one playing Jessica is the big girl and she could pick out her clothes, wear her new panties, and put on make up. It came time that it was the afternoon and she needed to go. I told her that she was the big girl and no diaper. She wanted to wear make up and do everything herself, so she needed to try and go in the potty. I sat her on the potty and I told her that if it hurts to squeeze my hand. We sat there and she did some toots, then it came time and she wanted off, but then I said to her, "Jessica, you are going to make a big splash." She started to laugh and out the poop came and she made a splash. We both laughed and from then on no more diapers. Sorry for going on, but I wanted to share the whole thing with you.

By Tklinreston on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 03:17 pm:

Kate,

WOW! I never realized it could get that bad. I'm so sorry that your family had to go through that. I really hope things get better for your little girl. As for what direction I should take, are you suggesting that I consult with my dr about giving him Milk of Magnesia or something of that sort? I wasn't clear on the transition your daughter took once she started taking the Milk of Magnesia. At what point did you sit her on the potty? Did she refuse? My ds is almost never constipated and his stools are very soft. He knows it doesn't hurt to potty but yet, associates pain with the toilet. Even if I were to give him Milk of Magnesia, I would basically have to force him to sit on the potty and go. I guess with the Milk of Magnesia he would have a harder time holding it and just end up going. Is this what you did?

I know my ds would hold going to the potty if I don't give him his diaper and so, I'll take your advice and continue to give it to him. I appreciate your sharing your experience and the more details you share... even better. Thanks!

By Tklinreston on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 04:07 pm:

Oh yeah, one more thing. Kate or Jenn, my question is whether you guys ever let them poop in the PANTS? A friend of mine did it that way and suggested I try that (at home) of course.

Jenn, I just tried your game about the splashing since the timing was right for me. He sounded excited about it and came to watch me, but when I asked him if he wanted to try it next, he said "no.. just you mommy". Also tried the "big boy routine" and so far that isn't working either. I'm going to ask my friend whether he could watch their little boy go poo in the toilet and see if that helps.

I'm getting REALLY worried and scared about this problem escalating, especially after reading Kate's post. Thanks again.

By Kate on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 04:27 pm:

Hi Joyce,

No, I never let her poop in her pants....with me I just wanted her to DO it, and WHERE wasn't as much of an issue, LOL. However, I don't think it's great advice, because my fear would be that he would know it's wrong, and therefore he would just hold it and you've then started the constipation cycle. If he's wearing his underpants and needs to poop, and he's too scared to go in the potty, and you won't give him a diaper....well then I think he'd hold it. But I could be wrong!!

I didn't mean to scare you, but I was concerned about the advice you'd been given and I was worried you might want to push him for the preschool reason. I wanted to share my story to show how much it can backfire.

I don't think you need to worry right now, or consult a doctor. If his stools are soft and he's willing to poop in the diaper each day, I would simply go with that. I assume he wears underpants all day long until he needs to poop, and then he tells you and you put a diaper on, and five minutes later you change him back to underpants when he's done? That's what we did. Just do that and be VERY matter of fact, with no criticism or sighing or negativity, etc. With my little girl her transition to potty for pooping was gradual....our first and foremost goal was to get her TO poop, hence the Milk of Magnesia. Once she realized she couldn't hold it back anymore, and it came out easily and painlessly, she began telling me she needed to poop and needed a diaper. This went on for probably two months. Then one day while going 'wee wee', she pooped, too. I was matter of fact about it and simply wiped her up and off she went back to play. It was then kinda back and forth with potty and diapers for maybe two weeks, and then eventually she just kept doing it in the potty and stopped asking for the diaper. Our problem is that we couldn't keep her at such high doses of Milk of Mag, so once the stool became thicker, she was leery of it again, but never had the actual fear of doing it in the potty, but she did still have the fear of actually pooping. We're lucky she didn't backslide to the diapers or fear of the potty. She's doing okay now, but we could go on QUITE the vacation with all the money we've spent on various stool softeners/laxatives, drugs for the UTIs, doc appts, etc.!

Let's see, I hate being so longwinded, but let's see, you asked at what point I sat her on the potty and did she refuse. Well, I didn't sit her on the potty after seeing the doc and beginning the Milk of Mag. She just happened to poop while weeing and it went from there, as I said above. Before the doc appt. and the medicine, though, I did try to keep her there with words of encouragement and holding hands and singing and buying a super cool PURPLE potty, etc. Nothing worked, she was hysterical with fear and shaking. She knew she wasn't supposed to poop on the floor or in her pants, but she just couldn't bring herself to do it in the potty. She'd stand there in the bathroom right next to the toilet, crying and holding it in. Hence, the doc appt. and the readily available diapers.

Sorry again to go on and on and on!! Good luck!!

By Jenn on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 04:54 pm:

I just re-read something you put. Your son is 3 1/2, well Jessica just started the pooping thing and she turned 4 Jan. 28. It has been 3 weeks that she has been doing this. I also bought her cloth wipes to use in the bathroom. Everytime she poops, I will wet about 3 of them for her. She really likes this idea and it doesn't hurt her butt. She did try the pooping in the panties by accident. I would put a pair of panites on her and she would come up to me and say that she pooped, so I would clean her up and put new ones on. I never made a big deal about it, I would always just tell her that next time we could try the potty. I found this on a google search and maybe it will help.
http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/parenting_tips/potty_training/potty_training_resistance.html

By Tklinreston on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 05:26 pm:

Thanks you guys. Jenn, the website you passed on was pretty helpful and gave me some great ideas. For example, I will try having him sit on the potty to go even while wearing his diaper. And Kate, I really appreciate your sharing your story. Although it did scare me alittle, it was very educating and I am reassured by your last post. Thanks again!

By Kaye on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 08:44 pm:

My son did this too. First with preschool I would just say the heck with and enroll him. Honestly they won't know if he isn't fully trained. Tell him he is going to a big kid school and there are no diapers allowed. He will be fine. My son went, never had an accident. So our situation was this. He wasn't constipated, he was scared, I have no idea why. He hated sitting in a mess though, so if I didn't catch him pooping in his pullup then he would change himself. The thrid morning in a row that I woke up and had to clean poop off the walls and carpet I lost it. At the time I felt bad, but I got upset with him and told him no more diapers and pull ups and threw them away. I ended up spending an entire day waiting for him to try to hide and do his business and when I finally caught him we stayed in the bathroom till he was done. I had to hold him there pretty upset. I read books, sang songs, etc, he cried. But finally (really about an hour) he finally just went. We really praised him about how big he was and he could do it and how proud we were. And from then on he was fine. He just had to get passed that fear. It was extreme but it worked beautifully. I don't think mine would have minded if I just let him go in his pants, he would have changed and left me a mess. Good luck! Potty training sucks!

By Luv2fly on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 12:58 am:

I second the advice to just go ahead and enroll him in preschool. The worst thing that will happen is he will have an accident and then you will be able to tell him that if he wants to continue to go to school he has to use the potty, next accident equals no more school. I know several parents that have "finished" potty training this way. Kids love preschool and will do whatever it takes to keep going. Another thing is realizing that all his classmates use the potty, he might decide on his own that he is a big boy like them. Peer pressure starts very young. I agree with bringing him a diaper, not making it a big deal. If you take him to visit the preschool and he thinks it is a fun place you might casually mention that he must always use the potty there, they do not have diapers.

By Tklinreston on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 08:22 am:

Kaye: Recently, I did keep him in the bathroom when he really had to go. I sat him on the potty and although he was crying and trembling, he just couldn't hold it and he did go. Afterwards I praised him but he still seemed shakened by the experience. I don't think it hurt him because he wasn't constipated but he still didn't overcome his fear. Since then, he still refuses to go. Last night I told him I would continue to give him his diaper but he would have to go in the bathroom. He agreed. But when it came time to going, he went to the bathroom and held onto the vanity and after a few seconds of mediocre pushing, he said the "poo poo wouldn't come out". He ended up never going. It is definitely a psychological barrier he has put up and even being in the bathroom is creating fear for him.

Another thing. Each time he has finished his business, he says to me, "mommy, big boys don't go in diapers, right? next time, I will try the potty. all my friends go in the potty?" So mentally he knows; however, when the "next time" arrives, the fear overcome hims and he relies on his diaper again and he isn't willing to try at all."

As for the preschool advice, I told him over and over again that in preschool there are no diapers and he nods with understanding. So again, mentally he is aware of the situation but I can't help being concerned that it will play out the same way in school as it does at home. The director of the school is not particularly sensitive about these issues and is VERY ADAMANT that all kids are completely trained. I'm pretty convinced that my ds would probably hold it at school. As long as he went once he came home, do you think that would be alright - until he learned to go potty? Also, if he does actually go at school, he's never wiped himself before. He knows what to do but will he remember to do it??? Boy, I'm really at a lost as to what to do. Sorry for sounding so neurotic about this. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks.

By Jenn on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 09:49 am:

How is your son doing with the potty training?

By Trina on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 10:43 am:

Sorry I'm late chiming in, but I have differing advice from a BTDT point of view. My DS didn't toilet train until he was almot 4.5. I sent him to preschool at 3 in Pull Ups hoping the peer pressure, etc. would help him along. BIG MISTAKE!! The teachers belittled him every time he had an accident and my DS, who was usually a confident, happy-go-lucky kid, became a basketcase every time I took him to school. His words while crying, "Momma, I don't feel special here anymore." I ended up pulling him out mid-year and wish I had never enrolled him in a preschool that required potty training in the first place. It only set him up for failure and actually set him back in the potty training department. I found a different preschool that didn't require potty training and it made a world of difference! We also totally took off the pressure to potty train at home and BINGO! No more accidents. Once the pressure was off he took care of it on his own. If you make too much of an issue of it training becomes a power struggle.

I wish I had more time to type but I'm on my way out the door. I'll try to check back later.

By Beth on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 03:23 pm:

My son is 4.5 and just recently stopped pooping in his pants at night. Well he still does once in a while. He had been constipated since he was a baby due to health problems. He was not constipated now. But I think he assoicated pooping with hurting. The only thing that really worked for us was that we figured out when it was the best time for him. Ds is pretty regular. After his bath dh would have him sit on the potty. I actually work second so dh did most of this. I think he was probably a little forceful with him about it. Not mean but forceful. If I had tried it I don't think it would have worked as well. I am to much of a softy at times. When he did do it dh made a big deal about and he got a special toy. We did that a couple of times. Now he goes almost every night. We still have to remind him and if we forget he will have an accident once in awhile. I will say this though I don't think my ds seemed as scared as yours does about it.

But I guess my point was sometimes being a little forceful is not all that bad either. It won't always lead to the severe medical problems mentioned above. I will tell you though I talked to his school about it and his doctors several times and none of them seemed to concerned about it. Luckily he went to the public school for speech and they had to take him. I also had a friend who let her son clean him self up after pooping his pants. She swears he never did it again!

By Tklinreston on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 04:14 pm:

Well... since my last posting, my ds went poop once (this afternoon) and as I do each time, I asked him if he was ready to try doing it in the potty and he said no. He did, however, manage to do it in the bathroom this time as we had agreed upon earlier.

Well... I was leaning towards just going ahead and registering him in preschool, twice a week for three hours each day, as some suggested but after reading Trina's post, I'm having second thoughts. What happened to Trina's ds is what I fear for my ds. I guess that is the beauty of this type of website/support group. We get to share other's vast and differing experiences, so that we can really give thought to all possibilities. I'm still trying to decide what to do with preschool. I'll let everyone know. Thanks.

By Palmbchprincess on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 09:23 pm:

Just to chime in, you are not alone, as you can see. My brother will be 4 in August and is not pooping on the potty. My mom said today that he's starting to get it, but my parents tease that my (almost) 1 year olds will be potty trained before their uncle! So I have no advice, just sympathy. (((hugs)))