Punishing ALL the kids?
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Hi everyone! We have 3 wonderful and perfect kids ages 9, 6 and 3. We also have 3 other kids who aren't so wonderful- I don't remember giving birth to or adopting them, and I never see them, but they live here and cause all sorts of trouble. Their names are Not Me, I Don't Know, and S/he Did It.
They get into things, leave dirty dishes laying about, ignore it when one of them is doing something they shouldn't (ie don't tell mom or dad), make messes... on and on. Our 3 perfect kids always blame the other 3 - and mom and dad are getting frustrated over sorting it all out.
Dh says his mom used to punish all the kids when no one would fess up and he'd like us to try that.
Example: This morning one of those naughty 3 left breakfast dishes on the table. I don't know which one did it and they aren't telling, in fact, they're arguing over who did it. Who should clean the table? Dh would like to give them all a time out or have them all do an extra chore.
Another example: Yesterday I removed some cupboard knobs and put them all in a baggie on the kitchen counter. This morning I find the knobs scattered all over the family room. All 3 of the naught ones were there, but none of them saw a thing - if it was the 3yo, the oldest two should have put a stop to it or let us know. Should they have all been disciplined?
Has anyone done this with their kids? Has it worked? Did you see an improvement in behavior? Is it fair? Does it matter if it's fair or not? Any other ideas or help?
Thank you!
No it doesn't matter if it is fair or not... Life isn't fair and they learn this starting in your home. However, If you make the older two do chores the three year old should have to do some too..
A better question would be, do you think it is unfair?? You will be the one that has to apply the rules.
I grew up spending a great deal of time with my four cousins, who range from 10 months younger than me, down to 6 years or so younger. When one of us got busted, and no one would fess up, we were all punished. If one of us broke the rules, and the others knew, we were just as guilty for protecting the guilty party. They will start taking responsibility for their actions if they know the alternative is everyone gets punished, because the innocent siblings will not be very happy. I do it with my children, they like to point fingers at each other, so if it's "he did it", "no, she did it!" both are in trouble.
Oh, and yes, I have seen improvement with my kids. The guilty one will usually confess before everybody is in trouble!!
Ditto Crystal. My kids are given 5 minutes to talk it out and figure out if someone is going to step up and take responsibility for their actions. Usually, the peer pressure is enough for the guilty one to come forward. If they confess to me in those five minutes, they are free from punishment, other than rectifying the situation. If no one comes forward, all three are punished and the punishment isn't taken away from the guilty party while the others are let off the hook if I do discover who caused the problem. I want to reward my children for being honest but I won't listen to "He did it" unless it's "I did it".
I like Tinks approach. "He did it" is not that same as "I did it" Expecting the guilty party to step up on his own is important.
And yes, to your question, would you punish them all for not speaking out.
Baby steps toward accountability... Many kids today are lacking this very important quality because accountability is seed in us that has to be nurtured. As are morals, ethics and so on. They have to see the value of being accountable for their own actions. If honesty is treated like a positive thing and lying is treated as a negative it shouldn't take them long to get the hang of telling the truth. As in,"who broke this?" and the child steps up, then he should be thanked for being accountable and should have to make it right. Clean up the mess, extra chores to make up for the financial loss.. Etc.. But the older children need to be able to tell you back what they did wrong and why they are expected to fix the problem. Just telling them you will do chores and them going through the motions isn't a lesson to them, it is just a punishment. You want these things to be seeds of lessons planted in their memory, so the next time they think about doing XYZ they have a clear memory of what the consequences were.
Now for the he did, she did and all the not me nonsense. I would sit them down, the 9,6 and 3 year old (only including the 3 year old because you want the older two to see he is included in the new rules)and say.... Maybe over dinner. With DH included, so they see you both are on the same page with this new plan of action.
If this doesn't stop this is what is going to happen. IF you don't clean up after yourself and I ask you if you left the mess and you tell me you didn't then you will ALL be responsible for cleaning up the mess.. Mommy will no longer listen to he did it or she did it. And mommy will no longer be picking up for you because you can't agree who made the mess.. This may not seem fair but it also isn't fair for you to lie on your brother or sister and it isn't fair that mommy and daddy have to clean up after you.. This means, if you get up from the table and leave your plate.. If I ask if you did it and you blame your sister and your sister denies it then you both will be cleaning up the kitchen. IF you admit you did it, apologize and clean up your mess that will be the end of it. Everyone needs reminders sometimes.. And honesty is the best policy in this house.. Do you understand? Do you have any questions?
We also need to discuss the issue of you watching things each other does that could possibly cause someone to be hurt or something to be broken. Like the other day when 3 year old had the kitchen knobs. You all know this was a bad thing.. You know 3 year old could have lost pieces of mommys knobs or put them in his mouth.. You should have came and got mommy or at least yelled, "hey mommy, 3 year old has your kitchen things". Can you give me examples of bad things one of you might do that I need to be told about??? (if they give proper examples then good, if not then give them some, so they understand) From now on, if I catch one of you doing something wrong and you are sitting there watching it happen there will need to be a punishment. That punishment will be a time out, chores, loss of privilege (what ever DH and you agree on) because you all (3 year old not so much, but he has to be inculuded) know the rules and you know danger and you have to be there to protect each other from trouble just like mommy and daddy are there to protect you from hurting yourself or breaking something. This new rule also may not be fair but mommy and daddy love you all and we want this house to be a fun house to live in and if we are always blaming everyone else for things we have done and if we are always watching as the others do something wrong then this house isn't a happy house for mommy and daddy..
Wouldn't it be better just to clean up quickly after yourself then it would be to have to mop the kitchen floor and help do dishes and clean up the table and miss out on your fun play/tv time? Wouldn't it be better to just come get mommy or daddy when one of you is in danger?? then for mommy and daddy to catch you watching someone in danger and you both/all being punished by having to clean the (hmmm) bathroom? We are a family and we need to work together and when we make a mistake we need to admit we made the mistake and do the things we need to do to fix the mistake.
Now here are key things to remember... If they tell you the truth right away when asked, say about the dirty dishes, you thank them for owning up to their mess.. You ask them to please clean up after themselves. And you let it go.. If it becomes a habit of having to be told, then you will need to explain to them that this has become a habit and that you are not happy about it and that there will need to be a punishment the next time it happens. The good actions should be praised and the bad actions need to be addressed at each childs level.
But like I said, you and DH have to be on the same page.. And peer pressure should nip this issue in the bud fairly quickly.. In time they will learn it is better to take the time to make things right then the punishment will be for denying their involvement. Be prepared for them to be angry at each other for a while too, this too shall pass but it is a natural response to be mad if you are punished for something you don't do. But it is a great lesson to all in accountability as I started out saying in this book.
The 3 year old.. Can use a rag to wipe of kitchen chairs.. He can help scrub the kitchen floor with sponges on their hands and knees. There are ways you can include him in the punishments.. And he has to be included. One reason, the older two will see him as getting special treatment and he should be treated as an equal.. The other reason, if you are not careful with singling him out as two young, it will become an unconscious habit and he will become a "spoiled" child and he will use it against you, "I am too young, to small, to this to that" later on.. Including him will bond him to his older siblings... Excluding him can create resentments.. They know he is smaller and they know he can't... help make dinner, but he can stand on a chair and wipe of the table, put out the silverware, put away the things that go in the lower cabinets, get things out of the bottom of the fridge.. there are ways to make him included.. And a 6 year old does know right from wrong, when taught and a 9 year old better know right from wrong.. LOL
{{{{BIG HUGS}}} get on the same page with DH and run with this.. May take a while for them to get the fact that you are for real.. They are use to you getting frustraighted and just doing things yourself. Which you have to fight the urg and hold firm to the rules. And... they may not do things your way but as long as they are attempting you can work on the skills as you go along.
Thanks for the great and thoughtful replies. I'm very glad to know other moms do this and that it works. I will be talking with dh and then with the kids... and yes, most importantly this is about respect, honesty, and responsibility.
Right now they are ALL in trouble. I said no to the oldest about playing with a certain kid in the neighborhood (a bad influence) and then I checked the backyard and there he was, along with all my kids. SO, they are all in time out and will soon be cleaning their bathroom...I am so over hearing the excuses:
But we told him to leave and he wouldn't.
But I just wanted to show him my new toy.
They kept buying themselves two more minutes each time I heard:
But it's not fair!
a snarky "Thanks a lot" (to brother/sister)
He's touching me!
Kind of funny how they are wising up to the fact that if one of them says something like above, then they are all getting more time out. We'll get it all talked out later and they *will* understand from now on.
Bobbie, thanks especially for your long and well detailed response. I'll make some 'crib notes' for dh and I so we make sure to keep on track.
The only thing I would add to Bobbie's post is:
Don't make dinner time a time to discuss negative things/punishments, etc.
And my reason is, you have family dinners so you can enjoy each other, share good times, relax.
My X used to use family dinner time to come down on the older two kids, punish them, give them the 3rd degree. And they developed so much anxiety over this. We all (me and the kids) came to truly dread report card days, etc., because we knew dinner time was going to be just awful. Stomachs in knots, no appetites, not even wanting to go to the table.
So when my X moved out, we stopped having those discussions at dinner time immediately. Instead we had family meetings, that, even if they were just after dinner, were done in the den, away from the table. I just didn't want the kids growing up associating dinner time with bad news.
So, I think Bobbie great ideas, I just wouldn't do it over dinner.
:-)
I am sorry to hear that Karen.. But we don't humiliate our children in front of each other. If it is a personal issues, which grades would be a personal issues, those things are discussed in private (my room or theirs) and left in private. It isn't the other kids business if Dillan is failing English... Or he cut class... Or HE didn't mow the lawn like he was supposed to.. Or clean his room... (just using Dillan as a for example.. and he has never cut class that I am aware of, yet... But he is guilty of all of the rest) If he chooses to talk about it with the other kids, then that is fine but we don't tell on our children to each other.. We may laugh about it later with everyone when he tells them because they usually end up telling each other but we don't embarrass them in front of each other over private issues..
Dinner discussions, are calm.. Well unless we are busting up laughing. IF we have and issue we present them with that issue, ask them for input, listen to their suggestions and if they have none we give them ours. Discussions involving something like, not picking up after themselves as a majority, not rinsing thier plates as a majority, fighting/picking on each other as a majority are discussed at the table over dinner.. By time we take the discussion to the table, DH and I have already got a back up game plan all figured out so we are calm/on the same page and the kids know the rules of table talk.. So they do their best to stay calm too..
These are family issues and our table is a place for family talk.. They don't seem to mind and all of their friends love being here for dinner.. It is a going joke with Dillans friends, they will actually have him ask when dinner is, so that they can be here before the food hits the table.. And if they need to be a part of a family discussion because they are guilty of the issues then they are included in the talk...
I only say these things because family talk doesn't need to include yelling and it shouldn't allow finger pointing.. That is what ground rules are for..
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