Love and Logic Parenting
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive January-June 2003:
Love and Logic Parenting
Hello
Our cities Parents as Teachers is sponsoring a four week seminar (Tuesday nights each week) covering the theories/techniques of Jim Fayes "Love and Logical Parenting". I have been listening to the audio cassette (Hormones and Wheels) that a friend gave me about raising teenagers and am TOTALLY impressed! I wanted to know if anyone has attended his seminars or seen him speak; if so what was your opinion?
I am a home day care provider and anxious to order the audio cassettes on toddlers and adolescents for myself and my day care parents to use.
I am a Love and Logic nut! LOL! I have not attended a seminar yet, but would love to. There is one coming to my area soon, but it really focuses on school issues which, knock on wood, isn't an issue for us at this time. I would love to go to one that focuses more on discipline type issues.
Just listening to the cassettes you can tell what great speakers both Jim Faye and Foster Cline are. I think it would be well worth your time to attend the seminar! (And be sure to report back how it goes...I would love to hear!!)
Oh, boy! I am SO jealous. I wish they would come to our area on some parenting topics too. I LOVED the tapes that I've listened to! They were SO helpful and very entertaining!
Thursday,I just finished reading "Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood:Practical Parenting from Birth to Six Years." It was the most FABULOUS parenting book I have ever read! This loving, calm, empathetic approach has changed the way I parent. I used to be worn out and stressed and I no longer feel that way. I feel like I am in so much more control of my anger. I really do look forward to her misbehaving so I can put the Love and Logic into use! Melanie and I talk a lot about it and it's been great having someone to bounce ideas off of! (Thanks Melanie!)
If anyone wants to add a great parenting book to their library, this is a GREAT one!
I can't wait to hear about the seminar too! I hope you can post about how it went!
May I borrow your book, Eve? 
LOL, Trina, you won't be sorry! Once you try the methods and see that they really are effective, you will be hooked!
Wow there's a book to tell us what to do lol just kidding but seriously how much is it and where do i pick one up? I'm sooo tired of being a referee..
Of course, Trina! The steamer is still in my kitchen too! LOL! I'll set them both aside for you.
Brandy, check out www.loveandlogic.com That was the only place I could find this particular book. I tried Amazon and Borders and they couldn't even order it for me. I think this book should be the LOve and Logic handbook. It's SO easy to read and very easy to follow! It's a little expensive at $25, but well worth the money! I would pay double for it.
Can you tell I am crazy about this book? LOL!
OH! Melanie! I tried the "energy drain" on Syd this morning. She said "Mama, NO! Stop!" LOL! She was whining asking for a snack. She's still too little to really get it, but she KNEW I wouldn't respond to the whining! She changed her tone and asked again! I was telling Jay that it's going to get really fun when she is a little older. LOL!
Eve, I just emailed Jules part of your post on this. I think it would be a wonderful approach for her with Madison.
I know I've said this before, but I'm saying it again, I WISH I had had this board 18 years ago!!!!!!!
That "energy drain" line is my favorite! LOL! My kids know exactly what that means and quickly change their behavior!
I love to hear all your successes with Syd! I just love her responses!!
Looking forward to misbehavior??? Oh My! I need to go find this book. LOL.
Karen, she'll love it. Even if she gets one good tip, she'll be happy. I would say it's an overall attitude more than anything. It's a sort of "no sweat" approach, if that makes sense. I had SO many problems with Sydney yelling at me. "MAMA!" to get my attention or just in general. I used a small line from the book and it helps so much. When she screams, I just say "As soon as you can be calm, Mama will talk to you." It sounds like it wouldn't work, but it DOES! She lowers her voice and almost whispers to me. If not, I just repeat the line until she does. Lots of super little tips like that.
Dana, I swear! It really is fun to do!
What is Love and Logic parenting?
From the Love and Logic website:
What is Love and Logic?
Love and Logic is a philosophy of raising and teaching children which allows adults to be happier, empowered, and more skilled in the interactions with children. Love allows children to grow through their mistakes. Logic allows children to live with the consequences of their choices. Love and Logic is a way of working with children that puts parents and teachers back in control, teaches children to be responsible, and prepares young people to live in the real world, with its many choices and consequences.
It's an approach to parenting developed by Jim Fay and Foster Cline. One of them is a former principal and also used these techniques in his school to help teach kids responsibility, so they also offer a lot of information to teachers. Basically, they want kids to be raised in a way that is much like the "real world" as possible. In other words, kids live with the consequences of their actions. Parents allow children to make choices and live with the results instead of following the urge to rescue them.
It's up to parents to give a child a task. And then hope and pray that he fails. Why? Because kids need to learn these lessons when they are young and the price tags are small. If a child forgets to bring his permission slip for a field trip to school, he misses the trip. The parent does not rush down to the school to bring it. Next time the child will probably remember the lesson (the lesson that happened because of natural consequences, not because anyone got angry and lectured him). And all of these small lessons will help your child learn to think so that when he is older and you are not standing over him saying "Be careful" or "Don't do that" etc. he will be able to make wise decisions on his own.
Oh gosh, I could go on and on and on about this way of parenting. I have found it to really help take the stress out of parenting so I can thoroughly enjoy my kids. The best advice they give is to try it out with one behavior you want to change in your child and see how it works. Then expand it out slowly.
Go to http://www.loveandlogic.com/index.html to learn more. They have a bunch of books, tapes and videos that focus on different age groups. If you want any suggestions, Eve and I both have quite a selection and can probably help you out!
HTH!
Well Moms I am headed to the first session tonight at 6:15. My husband listened to the first of the "Hormone on Wheels" cassettes about raising teenagers last night and agreed it would be worth the time to check this out. He also asked just how I was going to work this approach into our sons news paper route afterschool. It seems like a constant arguement with Jakob these days... he wanted the route now he doesn't. Of course when I ask him what he thinks he is going to do every day afterschool he comes up with some pathetic answer so I respond with.... "Nice Try!"
I will let you know how it goes tonight.
M'Kala
Oh, I cannot wait to hear!! Like I said in my post above, they always suggest focusing on one thing when you are trying this out. I have a feeling you are going to have fun working with Jakob and his paper route! Please post back to us as soon as you can!
Have a great time! Can't wait to hear all about it!
I am having some power struggles with my soon to be 12 year old dd. Which book would you recommend?
How many are there and how are they segmented?
They sound wonderful. I found the books actually audio CDs, which I like for walking, at Amazon.com. What do you suggest?
Thanks!
I answered my own question...but thanks. I just did some more searching at Amazon, read most reviews and will listen to the
"Teaching Children Responsibilty" CD. Many readers stated with older kids, you didn't need to buy other books, because the latter ones generally stated and used the first books ideas/ concepts.
Thanks!
Yes, Annie that is a great starter book. However, it is probably the least fun one to listen to! I definitely recommend it as it will lay the groundwork for the philosophy. But if it leaves you wanting more (which it probably will!) there are lots more that will carry the concept further!
I really enjoyed the "Avoiding Power Struggles With Kids" tapes. Very entertaining and I wanted it to go on ad on! They have a TON on their Website though. You may have good luck finding something there.
The class went well last night but I was not impressed with the "official instructors". I enjoyed the video and lecture but if you didn't have a clue what the "Love and Logic" program was you would have been completely lost. The women who were teaching went to the "Facilitators program" and became authorized instructors for "Love and Logic" but basically they just wanted us to read along with them and watch the videos. I am searching now for where in the country I can go to see Jim Fay or Foster Cline in action.
As a day care provider and mom the books/tapes are definately worth the money!!
M'Kala
How disappointing!!! I hope you can find one with Jim and Foster. I have no doubt their seminars are wonderful!
As you listen to more tapes and read their books, post again. It's fun to have another L & L parent to bounce ideas off of! (Right Eve? LOL)
How sad! (Sorry, couldn't resist! LOL!) I know I would love to go to one with Jim or Foster. They have to be amazing speakers! I hope you still can come away with something new and helpful.
Yes! I am always looking for ideas! Please feel free to post anytime you would like to discuss something! I would love to hear what gets you the results and how your kids react. Melanie is right, post again!
Can someone give tell me what the program is in a nutshell?
I liked the 1-2-3 magic book people recommended.
Gosh, the best way I can describe it. It is "Parent Centered", but very loving. You never lose your cool. They explain why this is so important, how anger feeds bad behavior. You give away all control that you don't need. So, I ask Sydney a ton of questions everyday. As many as I can come up with. "Do you want milk or juice? Do you want that in a big girl cup or a sippy cup? Do you want to drink it here in the kitchen or in the living room? Do you want your snack on a plate or in a bowl? Goldfish or Cheez its?" "Do you want to put your coat on now or at the front door?" (See, not wearing the coat was not a choice.)
They say when we share control with them, they will be more willing to cooperate with us later on. It's sort of empowers them.
It also allows kids to do a lot of thinking on their own. They come to a lot of conclusions on their own. It just gives you some better choice of words. Aggh, too much to explain in a post. It's very laid back, so Mom is not stressed, but very swift in consequences, so no "If you keep doing that, you're gonna be in trouble, didn't I just tell you not to touch that? How many times do I have to tell you? I mean it!" There is none of that waisted breath.
Feona-Here are a few basic principles from the book I sighted above.
"#1 Build the self concept: Everything kids learn and fo affects how they see themselves, which, in turn, determines what they choose to do with their lives.
#2 Share the Control: COntrol is like loves. The more we give awat, the more we get in return.
#3 Offer Empathy, Then COnsequences: Empathy allows children to learn from their mistakes instead of learning to resent adults.
#4 Share the Thinking: Give your kids a life-long gift. Every time they cause a problem or mistake, allow them to think more about the solution than you do."
Off to a playdate, but I'm sure Melanie can add A LOT. She's been doing it a lot longer than me!
You did a great job, Eve!
I would add a couple of things to the points Eve made about offering choices. First of all, it may seem very silly and simplistic to an adult to bother asking a child if she wants to put her coat on here or by the door. But children love it!! When they feel they have control they are quite cooperative! My five year old never wants to wear a coat, no matter how cold it is outside. The question I ask him in the mornings is "Do you want to wear your coat or carry it?" He always chooses to carry it, but he always takes it with him now with no battle. And I feel better knowing he has the option to wear it if he is so inclined.
The two choices you offer must both be okay with you. And if the child does not decide within 10 seconds flat, you decide for him.
Love and Logic parents allow consequences to do the teaching. The less you say, the more thinking they do. If you are angry and lecturing, the child is tuning you out or getting angry at you and trying to figure out how to get even with you. They are not learning anything. But if a child messes up and you are empathetic and truly feel sorry for what the child is experiencing, they are doing a whole lot of thinking of how to do it differently next time.
A couple of nights ago, my five year old burped in the 7 year olds face at dinner. I look at him and said, "Oh, this is so sad!" And I got up, gave him a big hug and told him dinner was over. He cried, and I truly felt sad for him.
Last night I called the family to dinner. The very first words out of the five year old's mouth was, "I'm not gonna burp and use bad manners 'cause I wanna eat my dinner!" I'd say it was an effective lesson.
When a child messes up, it's up to them to figure out a way to solve it. One of my favorite lines which I use all the time now with my kids is, "The solution to every problem lies with the person who owns the problem." I don't own my kids problems. But if they need ideas I will ask them, "Do you want to hear what some other kids have tried?" (This is a great line. Kids aren't interested in what you think, but they are open to the ideas other kids have had. And never give the best option first. Give bad ideas first. Kids always reject the first solution an adult gives them.) When you are done giving ideas, wish them luck in deciding what to do. The one rule for this is that a kid can solve their problem any way they like so long as it doesn't cause a problem for another human being on the face of the earth. In other words, if you forget your homework, don't call mom to bring it to you. That makes a problem for mom.
There is so much more to say, but I fear I have already written a book. All I can say is that I have found this method to be super effective in dealing with my kids. I am much more relaxed and my kids are learning how to be responsible, without any preaching from me.
Aggh! Yes, the choices have to be ok with you! I forgot to mention that! Yes, that's where the parent centered comes into play. Sydney was running the show much of the time (Even if it was her acting up and us focusing all our attention on her)and now things run a lot smoother. I now know it's ok to say "I'm sorry, it is sad for you." and that she can learn from that. I don't always need to jump in and fix everything. That's real life. Sometimes it is a bummer! Much easier than giving in all the time!!
I also don't have to listen to whining! Woo hoo! I have fun with it! When she is "faking" I love to give her tips and bring her to the mirror to really practice and get it down. LOL! When she doesn't get the reaction from me she wants, she stops! I also say "I'll be in the other room. When you are done whining, you let me know. But have at it. Scream all you want, but Mom is not going to listen."
All I can really say, is I feel very empowered. I feel more in control of myself. I used to be so frazzled. I would have to pull the car over and I wanted to just scream! Sydney knew she was getting to me and she knew how to do it well! She knew how to be in control of everything and now she knows things work on my terms and doesn't really act up as much. DH and I were talking last night about not really having any problems with her lately.
Like Melanie did with the Burping (BTW-good for you! I hope I can do it as well!) you just deal with it right then. SYdney likes to stir her milk at dinner, when she does "Oh, I'm sorry. I see that you are done drinking your milk." No chance after chance after chance. I really can't say enough good things about it. I think it has helped me SO much. I am a MUCH better parent because of this book.
Getting off my soap box now....LOL!
Thought I would share a photo of Syd in action. She wrote on the wall last night and guess who chose to clean it up "now" over "in 15 minutes." LOL! I can't wait until she is older and I can charge her for paint! LOL!
LOL! WTG, Eve!
That's great, Eve! Good job!
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