War with Iraq
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War with Iraq
It's pretty obvious that at some point in the future we will be at war with Iraq. What are your feelings about this? Do you agree or disagree?
This is very, very long - I have been thinking about it since Collette's post last night.
Do I think Saddam Hussein is an evil leader with followers who hate the United States and would do anything in their power to harm the U.S. and cause us grief? Yes.
Do I think that some wars are necessary and must be fought, no matter the cost? Yes.
Do I think the United States should attack Iraq? No - for a number of reasons.
From every report, the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, our highest military leaders, and many other generals and high military leaders, are opposed to attacking Iraq. I don't know their reasons but I rely on their military expertise.
Saddam Hussein has been in power for many years, with no obvious opposition of any size. I do not believe that simply getting rid of him and his top military and political leaders will change the position of Iraq or lessen its hatred of the United States. Yes, there is some opposition to Hussein, but is it enough to run the country if Hussein's top people were out? I don't think so.
The potential for other Arab nations joining in on Iraq's side, simply because Iraq is an Arab and Islamic nation and we would be invading a sovereign nation, are very great. What that would mean, in terms of the loss of U.S. troop lives and the cost in dollars - and the probable drastic cut in oil exports to the U.S. from the Gulf nations and what that would to to this nation, is a real and serious potential.
As a nation, we and our leaders have very little understanding of the people of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the other nations in that part of the world. Look at what happened in Afghanistan in the past and what is happening now. We supported the Afghanis who were fighting the Russians and when Russia was forced out, we essentially abandoned Afghanistan (both from a misunderstanding of the people we had been training and arming, and from an unwillingness to make a sufficiently long term commitment of sufficient troops and money to bring Afghanistan closer to what we think of as a modern, stable nation). By doing so, we left open the way for the Taliban, with U.S. training and arms, to take over and run that country, with results we all know. We have now thrown out the Taliban, but I am virtually certain that if we pulled out of Afghanistan the end of this year, we would shortly see another Taliban type rule in that nation. As it is, large numbers of Islamic terrorist leaders and groups have found haven elsewhere (including, by the way, many non-Islamic terrorists) with the covert support of other nations or groups within nations. The internal tribal feuds in Afghanistan are growing and causing serious problems to our troops, sometimes involving our troops in those feuds with false "intelligence". Pakistan, which has been one of our main supports in the war against the Taliban, is presently experiencing serious internal turmoil led by fundamentalist Moslems which may result in the overthrow of that government - exacerbated by India, supposedly one of our allies but unwilling to even temporarily halt its confrontation with Pakistan even when that confrontation works against the U.S. battle against terrorism.
I do not believe the U.S., either our leaders or our people, are willing to make a long term commitment of tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers and billions of U.S. dollars to invade and conquer Iraq and remain there for the next fifteen years to bring that country to some reasonable stability and movement toward democracy. And if we don't, we will simply leave the way open for another Hussein, another dictator who has even more support from a people who have directly experienced an invasion by the U.S.
No other nation, except possibly Great Britain, presently supports the idea of an invasion of Iraq. And Great Britain becomes more and more doubtful every day.
Iraq, whatever we may think of its leaders, is a sovereign nation with a legitimate government. Not elected, true, but very few Arab nations have elected governments. Perhaps we should have, in the Gulf War, decided to continue that war until we had overwhelmed Hussein's government - but our allies were unwilling to do so, and we were unwilling to do so alone and to make the long term commitment then. To do so now, with only one ally (and that is iffy), would be so expensive in terms of troops and money that I believe this nation's will to do so would wither, and we would find ourselves with another shameful exit, again leaving behind native allies who have put their lives (and their family's lives) on the line only to find themselves abandoned. Without a strong national will for a long term commitment, attacking Iraq would be terribly expensive in terms of lives and money and produce only increased hatred of the United States among the Arab nations and Islamic nations and much of what we call the Third World. I believe it would, in the end, leave us worse off than we are now with no useful gain.
Obviously my memories of the Vietnam War color my feelings about the possibility of war with Iraq. A couple of things come to mind: I remember, late in the 1960's, leafing through an old National Geographic from the mid 1950's, and coming across an article about our "advisors" and troops in Vietnam - 15 years earlier. I remember watching the films of the helicopters on the embassy roof, with U.S. personnel scrambling into them while hundreds of Vietnamese who had supported us throughout were left behind on the embassy grounds. I remember the bitter divide in this nation, which I believe produced the lack of trust in our government that exists today. I remember learning that our leaders lied to us, constantly, about the Gulf of Tonkin incident, about the progress of the war, about whether we were invading or bombing Cambodia and surrounding countries - and lied then and continuing to lie for decades to our own military personnel about the effects of Agent Orange.
All in all, the Bush administration is going to have to be a lot more forthcoming, with Congress and with the nation, before I would even think about supporting an invasion of Iraq. And if we are going to make such a major commitment of troops and money, I would want to see some steps taken to at least lessen the hardship such a commitment would produce on the average, working family, like a reversal of the tax cuts, restoring higher taxes on those who can best afford it and actually, seriously reducing taxes for the middle and lower income citizens. And some very serious oversight of those corporations who are in a position to make a profit from the production of weapons and other military supplies to keep their executives from reaping obscene profits from such a war. (Dream on, Ginny.) And, first and foremost, this administration is going to have to stop labeling those dissenters who exercise their Constitutional First Amendment rights to dissent as traitors. That is the kind of thing Hussein does and the Taliban did, but it is shameful for the President of the U.S. and his advisors to say such a thing.
Ginny, your input is so well put together, as usual. You have made some excellent points above, and I pretty much agree with you, particularly your last paragraph, but I think you've said it better than I could have.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD40802
Saddam is just evil. Pure and simple. The above link made me sick. I am still undecided as to if we should go to war, esp. without allied support. But he needs to go.
bump, just curious if there are any more views on this subject at this time.
I don't like Saddam, his ways or the way he runs his country. period.
But with our economy, and the status of our country right now, we are in no way prepared financially nor emotionally to go to war with Iraq. Heck we haven't even got over the turmoil with the September 11 attacks and now Bush wants to go to war.
I think also Ginny pointed out several major facts and perspectives, for which I could not have said better.
I also think we had the chance to do so before, and didn't accomplish so what makes us think we can do it again, without suffering many things that we can't afford to sacrifice right now, maybe never. He is leaving us alone right now, so I think we should do the same. If he attacks, then of course I think we will have to defend ourselves, but not at this time.
I think we are defintely heading that way, so if that is what the powers in charge think that is what is best for our nation then I will support that decision. I agree that Hussein is an evil man. I do think it will be a bitter and ugly war. As far as costs, honestly we have been preparing and saving for this for sometime I believe, so yes there will be effects, but nothing that I think will be life altering here. Innocent people die in war and that is sad and many of our americans will die too, but I think that I heard someone say that we are waiting for a smoking gun from Hussein, what if that smoke happens to be a mushroom cloud?
I agree with you Kaye. We are ( I beleive) going to War with Iraq. I hate to say it, but I am afraid we will be fighting a losing battle. They got more chemical war fare over there than what we could even dream about. All we have to do is make the wrong move,& cause the evil minded Hussein *cloud* us over. Saudi Arabia is sopposed to be with us , if we go to war, were gonna need somone to help, if we fight Iraq. I'm not ready, for another war. I have also heard rumors that this will be a remake to Viet Nom. I pray it don't turn out that way.
I wouldn't worry about their weapons being better than ours. I am sure we could blow them to oblivion....the question is will Americans have the stomach to do that if it needs to be done?
I think we will colette. If we learned anything about our time at Vietnam I believe it is we must finish what we start no matter what. I think last time we were in Iraq our goal was different, now our goal will simply be to kill Hussein.
"What that would mean, in terms of the loss of U.S. troop lives and the cost in dollars..."
Sometimes the War is the only way to live in Peace. Don't you remember how many heroes died in the country named USA for Freedom a few centures ago? Those real patriots of this country who even weren't born here, who came from France, Germany, Spain didn't want to live in fear that someone will control their lives and tell them what to do.
“As a nation, we and our leaders have very little understanding of the people of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the other nations in that part of the world”
Noncense! Our leaders understand that Iraq launched the war against of Iran, Kuwait in an effort to considirate his rising power in the Arab World. His goal is to become the ruler of the Middle East. Our leaders understand that if we won’t destroy his plans right now the feature of the World will be in his hands. He will turn Arizona desert into the camels farm; The Cathedral of Chartres in France(one of the most spiritual places in the world)into Mavsoleum of Tamerlan to his army's victory at nonmuslims. Instead of Mr. or Ms. we will be calling each other "Abah". We will forget the taste of pork chops. If the USA had carried out their task to kill Hussein in 1991 Saddam would not be creating world problems today.
"Look at what happened in Afghanistan in the past and what is happening now. We supported the Afghanis who were fighting the Russians and when Russia was forced out, we essentially abandoned Afghanistan..."
That time USA had "an enemy" - Kommunism and didn't know much about Terrorism. That time USSR were more dangerious because of all those "nuks" we have...Oh, sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. I am Russian mom living in USA. Came here 8 years ago. I have a priviledge to have my own opinion because I can see what is going on in Russia and USA and there are no any influence over my opinion.
I belive Mr. Bush and his administration anderstand that it's easy to keep a balance and stabilisation in the small Middle East countries then the bigs ones. Examine the history of warfare to understand it.
"I do not believe the U.S., either our leaders or our people, are willing to make a long term commitment of tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers and billions of U.S. dollars to invade and conquer Iraq and remain there for the next fifteen years to bring that country to some reasonable stability and movement toward democracy..."
I'd like to see you when Hussein will take over Iran, then Saudi, Kuwait, one by one country whith a great source of oil which he thinks belongs to Iraq and become one "Big son of Allah", powerful and mercyless. Don't you remember the way he became the lider, the way through a series of executions, assassinations of any person or group suspected of challenging his Rule. Do you know about destruction of thousands of Kurdish villages and a dozen of towns,burned and bulldozied? Do you know chemical affair against the kurdish civilians?Can you sleep well knowing there are no any proves he had destroyed that weapon?
Dear Ginny, I hope you I am not making you feel offended. Every one in this country has a right to have his own opinion. That's what people in Iraq don't have right now. They are afraid to be dead if they say "no".
We had one dictator in Russia,his name is Stalin. He was a good brainwasher. How could you not trust him when you saw his beaitifull smile? But he killed more Russian people then Hitler. He killed those people who didn't want to be "brainwashed".
Well, Freedom has a very high price. Our soldiers choose to loose their lives so the civilians can sleep, breath, be happy.If I were younger I wouldn't hesitate to join American special force and prove that I love Freedom. I don't like that some one with a nice smile on his face "sharps his tees to bite the entire World"!
Tatyana
I don't think this war will improve the lives or safety of any American. That is the primary reason I'm agianst it. I'm not an isolationist at all but I also don't believe we should be in the business of toppling regimes. We've done it in the past in central american and Iran and it's never turned out well. This war, like Vietnam, will do nothing but harm our country and when it's all said and done won't help the situation in the Middle East at all. And that's a best case scenerio. Worst case is that Iraq decides it has nothing to loose and unloads all it's chemical weapons. Some in Iraq, some in Saudi Arabia, some in Kuwait, some in Israel and any that they can get to the US, they let fly. It could also signal to North Korea and Iran that they have nothing to loose either so they might as well build up some nukes and not be afraid to use them. We didn't try and take over the Soviet Union, not so much because we couldn't (that's debatable) but because it would have done far more harm than good. That's what we're about to see here. Rumors are that we will attack between the 18th and the 20th so we've got about a week to relax. Better enjoy it while you can.
The time for words is over, just Pray,Pray,Pray!
Thank the founding fathers, the time for words is never over. I will indeed pray, but also protest, in the hope (perhaps forlorn) that someone with the ability to make a difference will listen.
My point exactly, the only one who can make a difference is not the founding fathers,but The Heavenly Father, who has a plan and that plan will be done according to his HOLY will, not mans. I do thank God that this country was founded under God and that I had the priviledge to be born here, instead of somewhere like Iraq, N. Korea, or Afganistan, where women and children are being brutally tortured and murdered everyday. I thank God that my children have the privilege to learn independently and make up their own choices without being endanger of prison. You see, as a nation founded under God we have a moral obligation to see to it that all have those privileges, and that battle should never cease because we are scared of the consequences for ourselves, and if it does ever stop then we have lost God's vision and his favor. If Jesus had been scared of consequences we would all perish. It's time we take off the border lines, for we are all God's people and should all have liberty. Where there is liberty, there is God.
Barbie, with respect, I believe the Creator's plan was and is to give humanity free will and let us decide, individually and collectively, what we will do. God did not create us to be persons without free will (otherwise called either slaves or zombies). I do not believe (a) that God has an ongoing, active plan for our lives other than what I just stated, individually or collectively, or (b) that this nation was founded "under God". The phrase "under God" is a recent addition to the Pledge; the founders of this great nation were very careful to say that government and religion should not mix, and several of them were publicly outspoken atheists or at least non-believers in any established faith, and they were very concerned that the rights and beliefs or non-beliefs of all citizens be respected and protected, having had experience of religious persecution in England, Europe and, yes, in many of the colonies that became part of the United States. Citizens of other nations and believers in other faiths (most especially Islam) will tell you they thank God that they live in a country which respects God and God's teachings, rather than in a heathen country like the United States.
And, as I recall my scripture, Jesus was "scared of the consequences" and asked that the cup be taken away from him.
Where there is liberty, there is liberty. God, if you believe in the same God I believe in, is everywhere - where there is liberty and where there is not.
And, right now, I believe the only one who can make a difference is President Busch, who can start or delay or call off this dreadful proposed war. I do not believe that God is going to reach down and either kill Saddam Hussein or stop U.S. bombs from dropping. If that is the way God behaves, then we should blame God for all the evils that happen in the world.
I understand that you wrote what you believe, and I respect your beliefs. I wrote what I believe (and don't believe).
Ginny-K, you seem a little upset with my beliefs, my intention is not to offend anyone,but I believe what I believe and also that nothing and I mean absolutely nothing happens that God does not allow to happen for his reasons. I happen to believe in the most high God who is capable and and able to do all things the exact way he choses it to be. And, yes God did give us free will to decide whether or not to follow good or evil, but what we do will not alter his purpose. And I am also well aware of the fact that the statement "under God" was added, but I choose to believe it was done so by the urging of the Holy Spirit, because that is what has made this nation strong, and I also am aware that we have our failures,but I also believe that we are much better off than any other country. As to whether or not God's plan is ongoing, I believe his plan has not come to an conclusion yet, but will when he returns. As for mixing religion with govenment, I think this and every other country would be a lot better off it they ask God for guidance, which I do believe that our President does. Everyone always talks about their freedoms, but when a Christian trys to state their point of view, it's not valid because it's based on God. Well, again my intention is never to offend anyone, but one thing I will not appoligize for is the way I make my decisions and that is thru much prayer and study. It has been a way that has never failed me. God Bless
No, I'm not upset. I just don't agree with you. I think your point of view is valid, for you, and your view of God is valid, for you. I have a different view of God.
Barbie, I think you have taken what Ginny has said as a personal assualt. It is clear to me that she is fully open to the way you believe. And like you from her, she has a different oppinion.
She is expressing her views, giving them weight by background information and standing by them. Just as you are doing.
Both of you have your own believes and are simply trying to express them.
Also, I wanted to contact you via email. Would you mind sharing this info with me? You can email at rikidog@yahoo.com
Here's to free will, free speech and those with the courage and conviction to use both. Whether or not our voices make a difference, we will continue to question and hope. Good for you, Ginny!
Now that we have apparently secured a "huge" chemical weapon factory, does your opinion change? Here is the link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81935,00.html
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