War protests in New York
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War protests in New York
I hope this doesn't get into a huge debate about agreeing with the war etc., but I have seen coverage on the news quite a bit lately with protest in NYC and how they are blocking streets etc. (Actually saw that part this morning on Today) Anyway, am I the only one who is really taken back by this? Do they remember what happened on 9-11 and how this ENTIRE country rallied around them? They suffered an act of terrorism. Iraq is believed to have weapons of mass destruction that could very well be used in the future to carry out another terrorist act. Is anyone else bothered by this fact or is it just me??? It seems to me that espically the people in NYC would be supportive of this. Am I missing something????
Vicki I am going to have to totally agree. We were watching that last Friday and I almost fell over when I saw what they were doing. After everything that has happened to them for them to all be protesting the way they are is crazy. You would think they would be over joyed that Bush is fighting for what happened to them and all of the family they all lost on 9/11.
"The anti-war demonstrations are costing the city millions of dollars in police overtime and drawing resources away from crime-fighting and anti-terrorism operations, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said Wednesday."
We have 8 million or 12 million people in New York City. We have every single kind of different beliefs - people and opinions.
I see there were 100's of people out of 12,000,000 protesting. They are also probably from the Tri-State Area - New Jersey, Conn and New York.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82321,00.html
No matter what I am glad people can express their feelings, unlike Iraq where you would be killed for expressing yourself.
Heard on the radio (while driving into work this morning) that some troops came across a "bunker" or HQ of some sorts, that belongs to Saddam that had a wall mural painted of the twin towers exploding on 9/11.
No!! This man doesnt support Al Queida (sp?)
How quickly people forget. Unbelievable.
These people have a constitutional right to protest. I don't think any one of them has forgotten about 9-11 but they certianly view the situation different than you. Have you forgotten about the 500,000 Iraqi children that have died in the last 10 years due to polluted drinking water and how the UN wouldn't let them import clorine to de-contaminate it because it 'could' be used to make a weapon. There are many shades of the truth here, not just the one that we see sitting in our nice housese watching TV.
As for the mural, of course he's going to celebrate the act, it was a great blow to America. There are certainly countless murals just like in throughout the middle east, even in countries that are on our side. That doesn't give us the right to attack and remove a regime from power.
I think for the most part the protesters realize what they're doing and why, it's just that they believe differently than you. It's not that much differnt than the protests during Vietnam. It was a huge drain on resources, the Veitnamese were doing terrible things to POW's and killing americans every day but the fact is that the protestors didn't belive we should be that at all. Those protestors swayed public opinion and are part of the reason that we finally pulled out of Vietnam.
I don't think that anyone has said they don't have the "right" to protest. They most certainly do !! They don't however have the right to block roads etc. Wonder how much they would have liked their roads blocked off to all the Emergency services on 911??? I just find it very ironic, that's all and I was wondering if it was just me? I really don't care which side of this debate everyone is on. Your entitled to you opinion just as I am mine.
Wow...I said I really didn't want this to be a debate, just wanted people opinions about what is happening in New York. I am surprised that it was felt it needed to be moved. Sorry.
Here in Boston, we have already been warned about this upcoming weekend. Downtown Boston is in the midst of a major highway revamping, turning the overhead highways into underground tunnel highways. This has been going on for some years, but, we are finally nearing the point where certain new roads are opening. This weekend the city is closing certain access roads and exit ramps, as well as taking our one major artery down from three lanes to one!!! The police are expecting the worst traffic day in the city's history.
It is for this reason that anti-war protesters have chosen this weekend for the city's biggest anti-war protest yet. Over 50,000 people are expected to converge on Boston's Common to protest and then march and spread out, trying to bring the city to a halt! They think by doing this their message will be heard!! ALL Police have been called to duty and all days off and vacations have been cancelled (my father and two uncles are missing my DDs first birthday because of this).
So... as much as I agree that people have the right to PEACEFUL protest. I don't agree with trying to bring down a city in the process.
Vicki, there's no harm done at all. You have nothing to apologize for. I just felt that because we have members with different opinions on this subject there would be a little more freedom to discuss them at The Kitchen Table.
Carry on!
I think Vicki is absolutely correct. They have every right to protest. They do not, however, have the right to block streets and buildings. They are doing the same thing in San Francisco and it has caused quite a mess. The protestors stated that this was a corporate war so their goal was to stop the financial district from operating. Peaceful protests are fine. What these people did was illegal.
Angela, not to get off the topic, but I am from Boston. I can not believe the "Big Dig" is near completion. Wow, it only took, what, 7 years?!
The last time I was in the city was about four years ago, when they opened up the new route to Logan. Anyway....
I agree people have the right to protest, but not to block the streets. They have the right, but I do not think they should.
This war has already started. Why don't the protesters use their time doing something constructive to help our troops or think of some way to help aid the Iraqi people instead of ranting and raving to passing motorists who are trying to get to work to make their American dreams come true? I thought a big lesson would have been learned from the Vietnam war. Support your troops, make their efforts the utmost of importance. If you put down their Commander-In-Chief and the cause they are trying to achieve; it invalidates their efforts. They can die for a country who doesn't support their actions.
Seth, I heard Tony Blair state this morning that hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children died from starvation because their "leader" did nothing to help them and aided their demise. Purposely.
The only reason why Iraq's drinking water would be polluted would be because Saddam doesn't care a crap about his nation's people. He obviously has had fresh drinking water in his castles for the past 30 years. He only wants full power for himself. The man is evil and is the equavilent to Adolf Hitler.
If someone thinks that we should not help over-throw this evil man, with all of the 20/20 hindsight we have from Hitler's regime, then we have learned "diddley-squat" from our great-grandfather's, grandfather's and father's sacrifices and deaths in the previous military conflicts.
What our forefathers have done for us is to make this nation a free nation, so we ARE able to debate political views. I believe every human should have that right.....but shouldn't block public avenues.
Hi Annie... I hate to burst the bubble of hope I cast, but, the Big Dig is FAR FROM OVER!!! Unfortunately, the only thing that's happening this weekend is 1) Completely closing Storrow Drive so they can open the access road to it; 2) Closing off two of the three lanes on the Expressway Northbound to open that stretch of new access roads to the Sumner Tunnel (also closing one lane) and the airport; and 3) opening the new cable bridge going from Charlestown to Boston.
From someone who's still living here, it feels like it will be another seven years before it's done!!!
NOW, back to the debate!!! 
Annie2 you said things exactly like what I think. The reason Iraq and its people are in the shape they are in is because of that evil man. Sure, there were sanctions against that country, but you know what, he could have ended all that in just a few actions. He could have avoided all of this with just a few actions that he has had many many years to do. Too many years in my opinion. He has had years to avoid this and he instead brought it to this. If he has no chemical weapons etc., why were there thousands of protective suits in that hospital? I guess if this is going to be on the debate board, we can talk about it now. LOL That wasn't my intent though. People are given that right to think and say what they want. And thank god we are. I guess I was just so dumbfounded when I saw that on TV this morning going in in NYC. I was shocked that this entire country came together for that city and they block roads and all this stuff protesting something that I feel in my heart is going to save possibly millions of people from having to experience a terrorist attack like they did. I just don't get it.
Probably 12 million people out of 12 million people in New York have visited the world trade center, shopped at the world trade center's indoor shopping mall, ate at the excellent restaurants, went to special entertainment events, went on job interviews at the world trade center's job agencies, rode underneath the subway that ran under the world trade center or at least admired the beautiful towers in the New York Sky Line from a far. We can't help but watch NYPD Blue reruns and say, "Look there are the towers."
New York City has not recovered from 9/11. I don't think we will ever recover from what happened completely. There will always be the missing towers and the missing murdered people. The memorial around the world trade center is still up. (Personal letters, dead flowers, pictures of loved ones and such are still taped up to a big block long fence all the way around the nearby church. - more than a 1/3 mile of memorials)
I could never work near the world trade center again. I would be too sad. I worked in the world trade center and the surrounding downtown area for 10 years. This is a major work center and people are forced to work near this horrible hole. You can still see the nearby building where the windows were blown out. The buildings are all very close to each other in downtown so you can't get away from the terrible smell that still lingers. You literally can't not notice the missing towers and the bombed out site when you are downtown. You can still see the soot and dirt on all the buildings and windows in the downtown area. You can't help but think the soot might be a friend you met a few years ago. You can't get away from the destruction even to this day.
You look at the damage and you can't believe it and you never will forget it or the people who were murdered.
I know many New Yorker who can't bear to go downtown to this day to see the destruction.
You wouldn't believe how big an area the world trade center covered and how small and narrow and dark downtown New York is. The world trade center was the only area to get light in the downtown area. People sat and ate lunch while the street performes entertained them in the lovely world trade center grounds. It is like they blew up the soul of downtown New York.
New York City is not protesting the war. New York has about 12,000,000 people living in the borders.
It is only about 200 (mostly college students) protesting in New York City.
That would be 200 out of about 12,000,000 people protesting the war.
OK. I am an anti-war on Iraq protester. I have thought long and hard about this war, and for the first time in almost 20 years felt driven to become involved in protesting again. I am not a generic "anti war" protester - I certainly did not feel called to protest the Gulf War. But this war is, I think, unnecessary and stupid and being done for a long list of wrong reasons. And none of the reasons I have heard are any reason for putting any member of the U. S. military in harm's way.
Yes, protesters block the streets. And we do it deliberately, because we want to draw attention to our protest against what this nation's leadership is doing. Just how much attention would a protest get or how effective would it be if it were done on rural roads or at a time when no one would be "inconvenienced". However, as a person trained to be a "marshall" for protests, I can tell you that if any emergency vehicle wanted to get through, I would be one of the people moving the protesters over to the side of the street so that it could get through. I am aware that not all protests are organized, but those that are organized have people like me whose job it is to make certain that while people are inconvenienced, no one is put at risk by the protest. I am not one who will commit "civil disobedience" - I have no intention of getting arrested. I have, however, a great deal of respect for people who are willing to risk arrest as an expression of their moral and political beliefs.
Feona is right - the number of protesters in NYC, compared to the number of people in NYC, is a very very small fraction. So if you are going to "blame", don't "blame" the whole city. Saying "they" in such blanket condemnation is, at the least, a bit inaccurate. (And, by the way, even our esteemed president can make only the most tenuous links between Iraq or Hussein and 9-11. From everything I have read in recent months, Al Qauida and its leaders have no use for Hussein, and he has little use for them. Iraq, in fact, does not have anywhere near the problem with Islamic fundamentalists that many other nations in the Middle East have. They do have Hussein, which is more than enough of a problem, but not the fanatic religious right Islamic faction. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, one of our allies, has a major fundamentalist Islamic faction, and some of the members of the royal family of our "ally" have provided significant financial support to groups which are involved in terrorist actions. If war is a pay-back for 9-11, why are we not paying back Saudi Arabia?)
I don't know if it is a "corporate" war - I look at the stock market, and the corporations don't, by and large, seem to be too thrilled about what is going on. But it is a war that the corporations, and citizens by and large, allowed to happen - and that is what I am protesting. It is also a war that is being used a reason or excuse to set in place a number of actions and proposed actions which violate and will violate the rights of citizens and other individuals - and that, frankly, terrifies me. I believe it was Ben Franklin who said that giving up freedoms in the name of security will result in neither freedom or security. He was right. And it especially in time of war that our government has moved to stifle those who disagree or might disagree or have a potential for disagreeing, and a time when those who cherish the principals of freedom set forth in the Bill of Rights must be most concerned and most active.
Do I support our troops. Yes - and I wish with all my heart that they had not been put in harm's way by what I believe to be a misguided and wrong action. But I recognize that now that the war has started, we are, as a nation, stuck with it. What I am protesting about now is to try to influence what happens next, and the variety of proposals to put restraints on my and your constitutional rights and protections. Because what happens next is going to make a big difference to the troops and to all of us.
No, I don't think what I am doing invalidates our troops. This argument was made about the VietNam war protests also, but it was just those protests that helped our leadership to eventually decide to get out of a no-win situation that cost the lives of so many of our best and brightest, a war that should never have happened. One of the reasons I am protesting is that I want our leadership to recognize that they can't just decide to "go to war" without having people protest. I have a dear family member going to Kuwait very soon, and he will be in harm's way. He knows I am protesting, and he and his wife support me. And I pray for him and worry about him and his family many times each day. I don't find a conflict in this.
I live, by the grace of God, in a country where I can protest without risking my life or livelihood. And I know just how much of a blessing that is. That freedom is part of what I am trying to maintain, in the face of an Attorney General and other government leaders who equate protest with treason. And my taking to the streets in protest is exactly the kind of thing that people like Saddam Hussein, and Al Quaida, and other totalitarian, undemocratic, oppressive regimes will not allow and do not understand.
As for Hussein's and Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction", well, I will believe them when I see them, in the British or European press. I don't believe our present leadership one bit about this and many other things. Nor do I believe that the U.S. has suddenly been hit by a lightening bolt of moral fervor telling our leaders it is our responsiblity to bring justice to the citizens of oppressive regimes. Mostly we just support them and trade with them. And I absolutely do not believe that our leadership will commit the money and time and personnel it will take to bring justice (and adequate food, clean water, medical care and education) and a potential for long-lasting peace to Iraq (as evidenced by the proposed budget). If we do there as we have been doing in Afghanistan, the average Iraqi citizen will be no better off, and maybe worse off than they were a month ago.
OK, I've said my piece. I'm glad this was moved to the Kitchen Table, as it is a subject which, obviously, has tremendous potential for debate and disagreement.
Ginny, will your beliefs change at all IF the US does uncover chemical weapons and/or weapons of mass destruction? The administration seems pretty confident they are there. I am just curious if that would change your outlook at all.
And I agree with you that this does not have anything to do with freeing the Iraqi people from oppressive leadership. This man has been in power for 23 years. Why now? And what about all the other nations, as you pointed out, who do the same thing?
We've been having the odd protest in Vancouver. Nothing huge, a few hundred people out in the street blocking rush hour traffic. The best comment I heard about the protesters came from a Human Interest segment on the news.
The reporter interviewed several frustrated and annoyed people who all said basically the same thing--they were frustrated and annoyed. Then the reporter interviewed a construction worker who was parked in his loader nearby, unable to back up. The reporter asked him, "Well, how do you feel about this?"
The construction worker answered, "Well. I don't think it's doing any good at this point," (the protest in question took place after war was already declared), "And, yeah, they're probably annoying a bunch of people who just wanna get home after work..." (shrug) "...But I guess they're our conscience, y'know? And you've gotta have a conscience, right?"
I like the way he summed it up.
Why the war now?
Because Saddam has been given 12 years to come straight and clean about his weapon arsenal. He has NOT. HE is not playing fair. This war did not have to start, but it did because he did not comply with the UN. The U.S. wants PEACE...Saddam does NOT.
Attacks have been made against us, on our soil and in other nations on six occasions in the past 8 years. Our president for the past 8 years was too busy hiding his head in the sand...or of the pants of one of one of his intern's. Clinton made numerous speeches stating our country will hunt them down, they will pay. A threat is a threat is a threat.
We are all parents. We know how far a threat goes without back up. Our elected officials made demands, gave deadlines, Saddam did not comply. We have to act on our threats or they are worthless.
Saddam is hiding weapons, he is evil and the two do not make a nice mix for American citizens. 9-11 comes to my mind. Yours?
I would rather have my trained military servicemen and women take action now, in the evil man's nation, instead of our civil servants ie; firemen, policemen, ER doctors, nurses, having to save our citizens in OUR streets, as on 9-11.
Remember, we are not attacking the Iraqi people, we are attacking Saddam and his regime. HE is using HIS people as human shields and targets.
I'm off my soapbox, thanks for listening. ;)
Annie, I am not disagreeing with you one bit! I said that I agree with Ginny that this is not about "Iraqi Freedom". If it was we would have done this years ago. When Saddam first came into power he gathered his government in one large room and announced, "There are traitors among us." He then systematically called out names one by one and had them executed. Including those who had been considered long time friends. But we looked away. In the Iran-Iraq war he unleashed chemical weapons. We didn't do anything. 12 years ago we encourage the Iraqi's to overthrow him. Then we allowed Saddam to fly armed helicoptors with which he massacred those people who did as we asked. We did not step in. So don't give me this bull about Iraqi freedom. Call it what it is. The protection of America. This man is evil and he hates us. I have no doubt he would hit us and hit us hard if given another opportunity. So I do support this war. But don't try to sell it to me as something it is not. Many countries do not respect human rights. But we leave them alone. This man is a threat to us. That's why we are there.
They have the right to protest, but I don't think the ones who are obnoxious and disruptive should get news coverage. As soon as I see those kinds of protests I turn the channel. I've stopped watching CNN because they keep giving them so much air time.
Melanie, no, my beliefs will not change if weapons of mass destruction are found. We know Hussein used gas on the Kurds, though he has not yet used it outside of Iraq. But to the best of anyone's knowledge, Iraq has no means of delivering any weapons to the U.S. shores. Certainly Hussein could have attacked neighboring countries, as he did in attacking Iran, and when we stepped in with the Gulf War. That was, imo, a proper response, fully supported by most of the UN, and a war in which we were not the aggressors. My problem is that we started *this* war.
We *are* attacking the Iraqi people - whether Hussein uses them as shields or not, we are the people firing the missiles. I don't believe there is any weapon which distinguishes between military and civilian targets, and especially when you fire missles and drop bombs on a city, you are inevitably killing civilians - people who have no choice in their government and no ability to change it. And people who only know that it is the U.S. that is destroying their homes and injuring and killing them. Yet we will expect them to cooperate in efforts to build a different form of government when the shooting stops, and probably expect them to be grateful, and be surprised and upset when they are uncooperative and ungrateful.
Yes, Hussein is an evil dictator. There are a lot of them in the world. And few of them rule nations which are any threat to the United States (with the notable exception of North Korea and, if their government changes, possibly Pakistan - and Iran, which has nuclear capability and which is controlled by fundamentalist Islamic leaders). And yes, for 12 years Iraq stymied and obstructed inspections. Yes, he massacred thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq, executed leaders, allowed his sons to run rampant. It is tragic, despicable, and terrible. But what in all of this justifies the U.S. starting a war, with few allies, after dissing almost all of our former allies and the United Nations - and our neighbors? What in all of this justifies sending our military to get shot at, captured, killed, and to shoot at and kill not only Iraqi troops but also civilian men, women and children? How is Iraq different from the other nations where these kinds of things also happen? Other than our government's declaration that Hussein is a threat to us, which I don't believe.
Is Hussein linked with Bin Laden? Probably not - they have been bitter enemies in the past. Does Hussein support terrorists? Probably not - he and his administration, which do not support the fundamentalist Islamic groups from which most of the terrorists are recruited, have been declared enemies of these Islamic groups over and over. It is highly unlikely that he would give control of any weapons which could be used against him to people he cannot control.
I remain unconvinced that there is any military, security, or legitimate anti-terrorist reason for the U.S. to have started this war. I don't think Hussein is a threat to us, except maybe the part of us that doesn't like being lied to so blatantly. But is that a reason for starting a war?
In my 40+ years as a voter I have been lied to by my government and leaders many times and I believe it is happening again. I believe our government and leaders have made a terrible mistake, one which we will be paying for in many ways for at least a generation and probably longer. I beieve that one of the hidden reasons this war was started was to draw attention away from this administration's domestic policies and the serious problems of our national economy. And I will continue to protest, with my votes, with letters and in discussion, and on the streets.
This shows how New Yorkers are not welcoming the war protestors.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/27/protest/index_np.html
Thank you for your response, Ginny! I think the only place we really differ is in our perceived threat of Hussein to the US. I do see him as a very real threat and you do not. If I did not see him as a threat I would not support this war, either. Otherwise, I agree with almost all you have said.
There was another protest in Boston a couple of weeks ago. A 20 year old kid started hassling a 71 yr old Veteran who was standing with a support your troops/pro war sign. A mother was unable to get her child to the Children's Hospital because she couldnt get through the streets, now she has to wait months to get in again. I have no problem w/anyones right to protest as long as they dont interfere with my right to conduct my business and are conducting a respectful protest. Blocking the streets in not OK, if it's an emergency, seconds count and moving thousands of people out of the way is going to problems for everyone.
As far as the big dig goes, I am really glad dh flew home last night instead of Sunday afternoon. What a mess that is going to be this weekend. I was a wreck driving into the city - even though I was going south and the changes this year are on the nb side of 93 - just hearing all the traffic reports was putting me in a panic on coming home.
Well, for all of those who claim that those who protest the war are not behind our service members fighting...point to me. I'm a 30 year military wife, who has a husband who fought in Viet Nam. While he was in a position that kept him from going to Kuwait during the Gulf War, he was on active duty, and we certainly had most of our dearest friends over there. I don't agree with our country's leaders. I will not support their decisions. I shall protest quietly, simply because I live in an area with a huge military population, and I don't want to hurt my neighbors. But protest I will. This is still a country where freedom of speech is protected by law. I hate that we are doing this, and hate that our soldiers are in harm's way because of power hungry leaders. I ache for the families who are suffering the anxiety of not only knowing their loved ones are facing harm and death, but are reminded, second to second of that fact by the media, greedy for a scoop and a buck.
Maybe it's the fact that as we age we lose the idealism that blinded us to the reality of this world. I look a round and can't believe the naivete of so many.
We have not only placed our soldiers in harm's way. We have, by going against our legal commitments to our allies (UN), exposed them to the danger of torture, and worse, if they are captured. We have decided that we are powerful enough to dictate our will to the rest of the world. We feel that this strength gives us a mandate to change legal governments. What's going on here? We used to be a guys in the white hat. Now we've become the school yard bully. "I'm bigger, and more powerful than you. So do what I say, or I'll knock you down."
To those of you who really believe that oil plays no part in these decisions, I ask....How many other dictators in strategically poor countries have we identified as major threats to our security? There are brutal dictators galore that repress their people, while we focus on the one sitting on top of the second richest oil field on this planet.
We have a right and a duty to protect the interest of this country. Doing so under the hypocrisy of fear of Saddam's weapons or liberation of Iraq's downtrodden populace is insulting to thinking people world wide.
I admire Ginny's commitment to her beliefs, and her courage to do what is necessary, clearly protesting that this war isn't something we all support. ...Especially in these times where we brag of how we are fighting for the liberties of others, while we stifle those who express their varied ideas and opinions. She is a leader of a column of many who think this is WRONG.
An interesting thing has happened. My ex-husband (married 19 years, divorced for 25 years), has been a convinced Republican supporter of every Republican president and administration for as long as I can remember. (Yes, political differences were one of the many reasons we split up.) Because of the war on Iraq, he no longer defines himself as a Republican (though, as he says, he'd rather be dead than vote for a Democrat).
He recently invited me to view his web site where he has posted his opposition to the war. His first post is a 14+ page paper in which he - as an engineer who is more than usually knowledgeable about some of the technical stuff involved in "weapons of mass destruction" and also some of the alleged evidence produced to support the administration's claims - brings his engineering knowledge to bear on those topics. He also discusses, with end notes and citing his sources, a variety of other facets of the reasons put forth for our being in this war. I have shared the link to this site with a number of people on both sides of this issue, many of whom (on both sides of this issue) have responded favorably.
For the first time in I can't tell you how many years, we are in agreement about a political matter, and I will say that it feels really strange.
The web site, if you want to read what he has to say, is http://seniordragon.home.att.net/
He addresses, with more technical knowledge and, I admit, more patience and more research, many of the things that have led me to oppose this war. (He also is even wordier than I - be warned.)
Ginny, Ginny, Ginny, yet again we disagree
You said:
Yes, protesters block the streets. And we do it deliberately, because we want to draw attention to our protest against what this nation's leadership is doing. Just how much attention would a protest get or how effective would it be if it were done on rural roads or at a time when no one would be "inconvenienced".
I think it is more than just inconveniencing people. Freedom of speech is a wonderful gift. And it's great to live in a country that allows this. But does freedom of speech allow you the freedom to disrupt other people's lives? No. Not in any way, form, or fashion. And truly..when do we have complete freedom of speech? On this board what we say is governed by the admin, as with any other message board on the internet. On the job our freedom of speech is governed by our job, and the rules of the people we work for.
No matter, that's totally off what I wanted to say. I support your right to freedom of speech. I DO NOT support your right to force your beliefs on me. And when protestors block roads, disrupt exams, etc. that is exactly what they are doing.
War protesters charged in math exam trespass
SF demonstrations cause mayhem, protests spread across Calif
And to address this part:
Just how much attention would a protest get or how effective would it be if it were done on rural roads or at a time when no one would be "inconvenienced".
I give you some numbers from the SF article:
Police wearing helmets and carrying nightsticks arrested more than 1,300 people by early evening.....
Peaceful afterwork rallies bloomed from Sacramento to Berkeley to Palo Alto to Santa Cruz, where about 1,000 marchers tied up traffic as they marched into the evening.
And there are many more. With those types of numbers, I wouldn't think that it would take a whole lot to make the news. At least it would be mentioned, no?
But does freedom of speech allow you the freedom to disrupt other people's lives?
Tell me.....what you think would have been the state of Civil Rights today, if people had not disrupted commerce to protest something they saw as wrong? The 1955 Bus Strike in Montgomery Alabama, disrupted people's lives. The March On Washington by 250,000 people, on August 28, 1963 disrupted the capital city of this nation.
"Those who profess to favor freedom, yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
Frederick Douglass, African-American abolitionist
Mahatma Ghandi used passive resistance, and civil disobedience to win the liberation of his country. Streets were blocked by squatting Indians who refused to rise even when beaten by police. Does that sound as if people were inconvenienced, and had their lives disrupted?
You are able to vote today because some very brave women took to the streets to protest the lack of voting rights for women in this country. The protests of the Suffragists disrupted the peace of their times, and paved the way for your rights.
"I DO NOT support your right to force your beliefs on me. And when protestors block roads, disrupt exams, etc. that is exactly what they are doing.
All I can say is "Thank God some people have the courage to stand up to the masses, and rip the blinders from their eyes". The inconvenience suffered by our young men and women fighting, and possibly dying in this imprudent war, far outweighs any delay in your rush hour commute.
"The nonviolent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor. It first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it.
It gives them self respect; it calls up resources of strength and courage that they did not think they had.
Finally, it reaches the opponent and so stirs his conscience that reconciliation becomes a reality." (Martin Luther King)
And what a nasty topic this is. Ok, my 2 cents...
Sometime this week my DH will leave, with thousands of other soldiers, to help fight this war on Iraq. Do I think we should be going to war? Yes. Do I agree with all of the things we do? NO! There are valid and bogus reasons for this war in the same breath. Validity coming from the oppression, torture, and murder of the Iraqi people. We can help them, and I feel we should. It's been a long time for them, and how can we as humans sit back and allow Saddam to do what he does. To me that is the equivilent of watching a grown man beat a small child, and doing nothing. Another valid reason? Saddam has chemical and biological weapons, and he is not afraid to use them. On us and his own people. Not to mention the very real possibility of nuclear weapons. He may have them now, or he may just be preparing to buy them from someone... N. Korea comes to mind. Don't even get me started on N. Korea. Then again, the bogus reasons for this war revolve around money. I cannot say this for certainty, but there has been mention above of this having to do with 9-11, and I don't believe our President is connecting the 2. Then again, I have stopped watching the news, because I cannot bear it very well. ANYWAY, for those who protest, I support your right to do so, in a respectful manner. BUT!!!! If you honestly believe it does not hurt and sadden the troops to see the protest, take a walk through one of our unit's barracks and ask around. Many soldiers are depressed and dejected, because even though they realize you are not directly protesting them, you are protesting a war they have to fight in, and that, in many peoples eyes, shows division and weakness. It makes them feel like their countrymen, who they fight to protect, are not behind them when they need it most. This war has started and it will not halt simply because some people block the streets and chant. I think time would be better spent writing to your congressman, and other people in your government, getting petitions, and the such, to try and protest. The only thing the public displays and disturbances do is make the news, and make the soldiers watching, who have to fight, feel like sh*t. I don't think a situation like this compares with suffrage, or civil rights. Those are the things to hold sit-ins and stuff over. Those are internal affairs, this involves the world, and right now the world is watching, while we are divided. I truly believe "United we STAND, Divided we FALL"
My view on the war is pretty simple: I wish the U.N. had a bigger hammer; failing that, I support the decision to oust Saddam Hussein.
Gassing the Kurds back in '88 looks like genocide to me. I wish the U.N. had stepped in then.
Crystal, my dear niece's husband is being shipped out to Kuwait. He knows I am demonstrating, and supports me. His wife and I talked about it extensively last weekend, and she also supports my demonstrating against the war. She and their son and I are worried sick about him. I do support him, and your husband, and Amy's husband, and all the other men and women over there. And I oppose this senseless, stupid war.
Quoting (and agreeing with) Steve Chapman of the Chicago Tribune:
"There is no contradiction between loving your country and wanting it to stay out of unwise wars. Nor does demonstrating imply a desire to see the United States lose. I can't speak for all critics of the war, but once the bombs started falling, I wanted exactly what the supporters want: a swift victory and the safe return of all of our troops.
As is often the case when the nation is embroiled in military conflict, however, those who favor war make every effort to appropriate the flag as their own political symbol. They insist that public opposition to the war provides comfort to Saddam Hussein and betrays those risking their lives in Iraq.
.....
Shortly before the war began, Veterans for Common Sense sent a letter to the white House signed by 986 veterans saying that they "strongly question the need for war at this time."
One of them was Charles Sheeran-Miles, a decorated Army combat veteran of the first Gulf War and a co-founder of the group. What did he think about protesters back then? 'It made me happy that there were people who cared enough to take a stand on the issue," he says.
As for the reaction of his fellow solders, Sheeran-Miles recalls, 'It was mixed. Some thought nobody should protest, and some thought it was OK, and a lot didn't care one way or the other."
It doesn't show much regard for our military people to think they would fall to pieces upon hearing that some people question the President's mission.
Supporters of the war don't really believe that dissent is intolerable in wartime. You can be sure conservatives will object loudly if they think the administration is waging the war with insufficient force or resolve. But if that sort of criticism isn't dangerous to the war effort, why is criticism from the other side?
Playing the patriotism card or the veterans card is a shameless attempt to discredit and intimidate dissenters which is easier than proving them wrong. The real divide is between those who see open debate in a democracy as a weakness and those who see it as a strength."
I agree with Steve Chapman. Every protest against any war or military action anywhere has been designated by that war's supporters as unpatriotic. The most prominent example is, of course, the Viet Nam war, which officially began with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed by Congress, because Congress was lied to by the then administration and intelligence sources about an alleged attack on a U.S. Navy vessel in the Gulf of Tonkin. The lies were only revealed in recent years by use of the Freedom of Information Act. U.S. citizens who felt then that the U.S. should not be fighting a war in Viet Nam took to the streets throughout the war in tens of thousands, and thousands were arrested. And we remember the terrible price this nation paid in lives lost, of "destroying the village to save it", and in the distrust of government that developed out of our belief (and, later, knowledge) that we were being lied to.
One of the things your husband, and all the other men and women over there, are fighting to protect, according to our President, is freedom and democracy. That includes the freedom to dissent and the freedom to protest. In this country at least, you don't get to pick and choose which freedoms you are protecting - the founders laid it out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I do not believe Saddam Hussein or Iraq present a danger to this nation. And yes, I remember 9-11 - and I remember all of the statements made by knowledgeable people in and out of government who say there is no link between Saddam Hussein and 9-11. Yes, he is an evil dictator who has attacked and murdered his own people - but why attack this evil dictator, and why now? I have seen no evidence that Iraq has the ability to attack the United States, and a lot of evidence that it does *not* have that ability.
Feona posted elsewhere in this section a knowledgeable report that after the war, with a "free" Iraq, oil prices will almost certainly go down and oil production will increase drastically. (But this war isn't about oil, is it?) From a column in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer by Trudy Rubin, she reports that Haliburton Co., the company that Vice President Cheney headed until 2000, has been given one of the first contrast for post-war reconstruction - a no-bid, no dollar limit, cost-plus deal, let without any competitive bidding. Haliburton is under investigation by the SEC for a variety of accounting and auditing issues that overstated its profits, increased its stock price (and Cheney's ultimate profit), and cost its stockholders millions. The U.S. Agency for International Development invited - *invited* - "a small, select group of politically well-connected U.S. companies to bid for up to $900 million in primary contracts to reconstruct Iraq - a task that could ultimately cost tens of billions". Few in the administration have, so far, said that they see anything unusual or even remotely wrong in this process. It is, sad to say, business as usual, where the friends of those in power get special opportunities to profit. One of the slogans we shout as we march is "No business as usual."
There is, of course, no comparison between the risks our military personnel are facing in the Middle East and the risks the demonstrators are taking. But yes, protestors get arrested. That is a risk we take, knowing that when you do something unpopular it is the price you can pay for acting on your beliefs. If you remember Kent State, some demonstrators were killed by U. S. military personnel, while acting on their belief in their First Amendment rights.
I am not blanket "anti-war". I've said that and say it again. But I am deeply opposed to this war. I believe we have been lied to about the reasons for this war. I do not believe it is being fought in defense of the United States or out of any deep moral desire to bring "freedom" to the Iraqi people. I believe when this war is over our government will attempt to impose an undemocratically selected government on Iraq and a whole host of well-connected corporations will start making major profits. I do not believe this administration is willing to commit the funds or personnel necessary to provide a sound foundation for the development of democracy in Iraq, and that the end result will be an even greater danger to the United States, in terms of greater instability in what is already an unstable part of the world and more people in that part of the world actively supporting and becoming involved in terrorism. I believe the best interests of the United States have been severely damaged for the long term by our disregard for and disrespect of the United Nations and most of our (formerly) major allies and that this will harm us greatly in international relations for the next generation or longer. I believe that the other nations in the Middle East view us with alarm and are wondering if they are "next". I believe this President and this administration are using the men and women serving in the military to carry out hidden agendas that they have not revealed to Congress or the public. And I believe this President and this administration are using the mantra of "national security" to attempt to limit the rights of citizens under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, as demonstrated by Patriot Act I and the proposed (and so far kept fairly secret) Patriot Act II.
And, I believe I have a moral duty to protest against what I believe to be wrong. I am truly sorry that it affects your husband and his buddies, Crystal. They are doing their duty, as they are sworn to do, and I would not for a moment expect them to do otherwise. My protesting and all the protestors are trying to influence the people here - to try to persuade them (and you) that this war is wrong, so that you try to influence your elected representatives. That is how change comes about in this country.
My thoughts on the protests are this. I believe that everyone that is protesting should just let it go because our troops are over there already and there is nothing they can say or do to bring them back any sooner. I also believe that everyone should get behind our troops and start praying for all of them to come back safely.
Go U S and A
(S is supposed to be white but you can't see it. Bear with me :o)
\image(usa flag}
My image didn't work here it goes
I usually do not get involved in debates as I am typically a peace maker in nature, but I do feel the need to add to this post so please bear with me.
What a slap in the face it must be to the men and women who are risking their lives to keep us safe to know that people are protesting against them. Some say that they are protesting the war and not the soldiers (I believe that some actually do feel that way), but perception rules and I would be willing to bet that most of the soldiers view protesting the war as nonsupport for them.
As far as Iraq not having the ability to reach us with weapons of mass destruction...well all I can say is remember 9-11. Evil people have proven that they do not necessarily need conventional weapons do do us great harm on our own soil. I believe this war is necessary and I fully support our troops and our president.
Tell me.....what you think would have been the state of Civil Rights today, if people had not disrupted commerce to protest something they saw as wrong? The 1955 Bus Strike in Montgomery Alabama, disrupted people's lives. The March On Washington by 250,000 people, on August 28, 1963 disrupted the capital city of this nation.......
To answer all of these points in one...two wrongs don't make a right. It isn't right to FORCE what you believe on someone, no matter what the cause. How many times have I been warned myself on this board for FORCING my Christian beliefs? And that was only for making a post that I thought was a brag. You can't have it both ways. You can't say, sometimes we need this, and then turn around and say noone has the right to force their beliefs on anyone else. Choose.
All I can say is "Thank God some people have the courage to stand up to the masses, and rip the blinders from their eyes". ( I don't appreciate this, btw) The inconvenience suffered by our young men and women fighting, and possibly dying in this imprudent war, far outweighs any delay in your rush hour commute.
First of all...I don't have a rush hour commute.
"The nonviolent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor. It first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it. It gives them self respect; it calls up resources of strength and courage that they did not think they had.
So now this is about the protestors, and not the war.
Finally, it reaches the opponent and so stirs his conscience that reconciliation becomes a reality." (Martin Luther King)
I love Martin Luther King. I think the man was a wise and wonderful man. But I have to disagree with him here.
The US involvement in the Vietnam War lasted from August 4, 1964 to Jan. 27, 1973 (and that's just when the peace agreement was signed).
I was born 1 year after the Vietnam War ended. But even I have access to all of the "inconveniencing" that went on in that time. Did it make a difference? I can't see that it did. I mean that is darn near 10 years of fighting. If all of this "civil disobedience" changed anything then that would be different. But it doesn't, not when referring to war. Comparing Civil rights marches and war protests is like apples to oranges. As Crystal put it so well...Those are internal affairs, this involves the world
I stand behind what I said. You, nor anyone else has the right to FORCE your beliefs on me. And your protests are doing nothing more than making the news. I seriously doubt if they will affect the outcome of this war at all.
Ginny~ First I'd like to say I'm glad your niece and her family understand and support your protesting. BUT what I was saying was MANY SOLDIERS DO NOT!!!! And I couldn't have said what Jblmom and Tunnia said better myself. I also feel that the obnoxious protests are, as Jujubee said, an attempt to force your opinions on others. It is one thing to rally support for your anti-war-on-Iraq feelings, get petitions, and letter writing campaigns. I think that might serve a purpose. That might make a difference, but this "blocking the streets, screaming about no war, calling our government names" sort of protesting is not doing anyone any good except to make the protesters feel better. And I appreciate the fact that you support our soldiers, but part of support is solidarity. And at this point, I don't give a damn about the feelings of all those out there protesting and making a scene, because the bottom line is my husband will be lucky to come home alive and uninjured. You can't stop the war that is putting him in harm's way with the debauchery (sp?), so I choose to ignore the antics and focus on supporting my fellow Americans who are risking their lives. And for the record, I'm a democrat, didn't vote for Bush, and didn't vote for Jeb Bush as my governor, but I'm stuck with them. Sucks for me, but there are bigger things to focus on. IMO
ADMIN NOTE: The post from a non-member using a member's username and password to "contribute" to this discussion has been deleted. It clearly violated posting guidelines, even for The Fox Hole/Front Line board, as it included name-calling, personal bashing, and other equally distasteful things that are textbook flaming. As I mentioned before, this board in particular will be monitored closely since it does have the potential for flaming.
First of all I want to thank those of you who stand behind us and support us in all that we do. But let us not forget what the American soldier stands for and goes to fight for, and that is so that those of us who do oppose the war have the right to voice that opinion. I am an American soldier and I am going to Iraq and I am going to fight to insure that my family, and even those who may spit on me,like the soldiers of Vietnam maintain the right to vioce their opinion,even if that means me having to give my life, I will gladly do so if that is what it takes to ensure that my family keeps the right to protest or not, to live in a free nation, to not be persecuted bor their beliefs. Someone posted that the demonstrating must be a slap in the face to us as soldiers. In my opinion they have that right. We as a peopole tend to forget that what makes the U.S. so wonderful is the right and ability to think for oneself, the ability to have this discussion with out fear of being shot or tortured. So i will go to fight until the death to insure that my children and grand chioldren keep that right. I firmly believe that there is more to the story than disarming Saddam, however I pray that I will have some positive effect as a result of this war, in this I mean they will be able to start thinking for themselves, that thier women will not have to hide behind a veil, or have their clitoris removed simply because that is the norm. My hope is that this will bring about some of my freedoms to those who do not have them.
About my previous post the clitoris remark was made from research that i did recently. you can find more information if you look on google search under female genitle mutilation. Apparently it is a sin for the woman to have pleasure from sex, men are the only one deserving of that right. It is also viewed as a right of passage into womanhood, however it usually is done under poorly sanitised conditions and with objects like a peice of broken glass or a kitchen knife. I just wanted to point out why i put this so you guys weren't thinking i was some kind of perv or something.
Not thinking you are a perv, Mike. LOL I've read articles on that and it's exactly as you stated above.
It's apparent that none of us will change the thinking of the others on this subject. We all have our opinions, and we all have a right to those opinions. We've put forth our best reasoning for why we think the way we do. To proceed from here is futile. Harping on it will only bring resentment not converts. I've stated my beliefs. I've read and considered your points. I hope you have given mine the same courtesy. Thanks.
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